RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: steven mandell on April 10, 2010, 06:49:01 PM
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I just bought a 1993 Autozam (Mazda) AZ-1 at an auction in Salt Lake City , Utah last week. We are not allowed to import cars that do not pass safety or other standards into the US that are less than 25 years old. So finding one this rare for sale at an auction that was run by the U.S. Marshall's office and was the property of the Department of the U.S. Treasury seemed an unprescedented opportunity to legally own a car that would other wise be both unobtainable and illegal in my country. Title is practically assured as the paperwork that I recieved literally looks like it was printed on the same paper with the same imbedded security metal strips, fibers, watermarks and elaborate detailed framing as the currency in my wallet. Registering it, however is a challenge that I haven't solved yet. I don't expect any help from my friends across the pond on this one- but am open to suggestions just in case.
So...is a 660cc mid engined approximately 10 foot long 45 inch tall car considered to be a micro? it's footprint in my driveway is similar to my Nobel's- albeit it doesn't taper towards the rear. Similar to the Nobel- all females consider it to be irriesistably adorable, and there is no trunk-just a short parcel shelf at about nipple hieght behind the 2 seats that is further diminished by the presence of a spare tire that my Noble didn't come with.
I know this car is much more readily available in England because of some sort of 50,000 mile engine replacement scheme imposed by the Japanese government, and the fact that your country both allows such to be imported and you happen to drive your cars on the same side of the road. But the prospect of enjoying a very small and unique (in thie US) vehicle that has a 660 c.c. 3 cylinder, 4 valve double overhead cam turbocharged and intercooled motor that comes with an 11,000 rpm tachometer showing no redline in a midship location and gullwing doors as a daily driver seemed to good to pass up.
I am still able to spend most of my free time working on my other microcars, as this one will be comparatively maintenence (and certainly restorationally) free.
But is it a mico?
Somebody more technically adept at image posting please post pictures for me. It does actually look both smaller and cuter in person so to speak.
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Hi Steven. According to the current Rumcars definition it is a microcar as it is under 700cc. Personally I have always thought that the rules as to what defines a microcar is open to personal interpretation but for the purpose of an organisation such as rumcars you can understand why someone has to draw a line somewhere. Congratulations on your acquisition. Lets see some pics soon.
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Is it one of these? :)
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z211/stuartcyphus/MazdaAZ1.jpg)
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What you bought was an item that was smuggled into the USA.
There were a couple other vehicles with similar pedigrees at that auction.
Just because the US Marshall is selling them does not make them legal for road use in the USA.
You might be able to get legal TITLE to it but not Registration for road use.
I actually contacted the Auctioneer, the US Marshall and US Customs Enforcement to try and get an answer about this in advance of the auction.
The short answer is: They don't have enough staff to deal with smuggled items once they are in the USA.
If you were trying to get it across the border...that's another thing. Now that it is in the USA, you will have to do something obvious to get it seized.
But getting legal registration to use the car on US Roads is another government agency and since the car is not legally allowed to use US Roads you may set off some red flags if you try and register it.
I know of people that have successfully smuggled cars into the USA only to find them seized when they tried to legally register them for road use.
Was it registered for road use before it was sold? If so, what was it registered as?
Normally these things are titled and registered as "something else".
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Couldn't find anything specific, but these might give you some food for thought
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071022174908AA8eM19 (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071022174908AA8eM19)
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/howtosd072003.html (http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/howtosd072003.html)
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/elig050108.pdf (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/elig050108.pdf)
http://www.terra2imports.ca/mazda/az-1/#articles (http://www.terra2imports.ca/mazda/az-1/#articles)
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Couldn't find anything specific, but these might give you some food for thought
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071022174908AA8eM19 (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071022174908AA8eM19)
that one is pretty spot on, but copied from Wikipedia, also the car is already IN the USA, it does not need to be imported.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/howtosd072003.html (http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/howtosd072003.html)
According to that, the car is not eligible to be imported if more than 500 were made.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/elig050108.pdf (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/elig050108.pdf)
again, same thing but more
http://www.terra2imports.ca/mazda/az-1/#articles (http://www.terra2imports.ca/mazda/az-1/#articles)
That article is very misleading as it is about "How to Import to CANADA". Canada is not the USA. Neither is Mexico in case that comes up.
Canada only requires vehicles be 15 years old before they can be legally imported (USA is 25 years)
so that is one way that these cars were easily smuggled into the USA.
There is no legal way to get this car Registered for Road Use in the USA.
I have had this discussion many many times in the past. I always wait to see if someone provides some new information but it never appears.
Every single "legal with paperwork!" car of these types that I have seen all have falsified titles somewhere in their past.
If you can live with the legal ramifications of it, then by all means do whatever you have to do to get it on the road and drive it.
But if you get into an accident you will suddenly find that the Insurance Policy you thought covered the vehicle now does not as the car was not legal to be used on the road.
You could lose your house. But if you are aware of the risks or can figure out a way around it, by all means go for it.
Every time I find myself in one these types of discussions there is always someone who complains that I am too pessimistic or something.
Would you rather have the information NOW so you can make an informed decision or after you lose your house?
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I'll have to agree with Jim on this-- until it turns 25, you're stuck. True, the less-than-500-made limit is not absolute, but you would have to convince the Feds that the car is of exceptional interest for them to grant a waiver. Then again, some states have all sorts of oddball provisions for parade use and the like, so you may want to do some research and discuss your options when you apply for a title. One example (not applicable in your case) is Oregon's exemption for "racing activity vehicles" that was written primarily to accommodate the brief period of Ariel Atom manufacture in that state:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/vehicle/Racing_Activity.shtml (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/vehicle/Racing_Activity.shtml)
If all else fails, it looks like you may have a fun track vehicle on your hands for the next few years; that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Surely not?!
There is somewhere on the planet worse than the UK regarding legislation etc...
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What is a Microcar? A never ending discussion for a definition but I think it is more about the mindset of the owner than anything else for clubbing and activeties.
For my personal definition of what is a Microcar it is pretty simple. It has to be minimalist motoring which is what I think is the real interest in the cars I want. Technically a 2CV is a Microcar but it simply is not. It is a light car. There is the difference and why I do not own a Trabbi, Bond Bug and so on. Looking at our rallies you will soon notice that a good proportion of participants are actually into light cars for usage not Microcars as by definition a Microcar is not so easy to drive on the open road these days. This does not greatly matter save the fact that because they are not true minimalists we get the ever larger support vehicles turning up as well. It is well known now that I remain convinced that there should be a proper Microcar Rally once a year. Call it the Campaign for real Microcars if you will. It would seem I am a minority and the edges are blurred as to what is a Microcar now as there used to be a date parameter as well as an engine size. Clearly a 1980's 400cc has getting on for three times the power of a 1950's one with other technological advances. They are not comparable. If Invalid Carrages are not Microcars that why are these later light cars Microcars? Perhaps because it suits the owners. However I refer you to the first statement which is really the important one. It is about shared interests in engineering that wins through as I know very few real Micronauts who do not have another hobby they are active in participating in. These are the 1 in 20 doers in the population and are interesting people in the main. We have a few eccentrics on board but that is good too.
Britain still has a pretty lenient registration system. It is a lot more picky than it used to be. America is complex as each State seems to have its own system with a federal one chucked over the top. This is where we are going with the EEC making the rules up. What really makes the difference is if you can find an official in the department who is genuinely interested in his job and not just tuning up for his pay cheque doing as little as possible in return.
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Thank you all for your interest, warm wishes and very valuable support- especially the relevant documentary requirements and taking the time to try to understand them.
Bob- I spent the whole day reassembling the entire front suspension on the Nobel after restoring all the bits except for the silentblock bushes I will soon get.
Looks great- get a test run tomarrow.
Stuart- Thanks for adding the picture. Only difference is that it is a slightly redder red with no black lower panels for 1993, and my wheels are "groovier" as they actually have the word GROOVE cast in their centers and are of a more flowing integritve (prettier) character of design.
Jim- No plates on the car- so probably was not registered, or if it was, considering the nature of the crimes the owner was convicted of most likely illegally.
Your dedication to detail is admirable. Your concern for me not loosing my house is appreciated. And your peccimism is warranted but as MHorrell states-"not absolute" as the opportunity still exists for vehicles with production numbers of greater than 500 to be allowed for "Show and Display" if one can "convince" someone of high enough stature in the federal government that this car is of "exceptional" significance. This could be due to "technological, engineering and construction features of advanced and unusual nature not commonly found in vehicles manufactured at the time of its manufacture." I am hoping that the gull wing doors were unique for cars made in 1993. The Honda Beat is on the list of cars not considered to eligible for this "Show and Display" exemption that would allow an annual mileage of up to 2,500 miles to be put on in order to display and aintain the car in proper working order. However at less than 4,400 AZ-1's and approximately 8 times that number of Beats, and the aded uniquenes of Gull wing doors along with the possibility of achieving greater safety than attainable with the lack of roof structure found on the convertible Beat along with the composite body panels- I might just have a chance worth trying.
Now if I could just find the federal official that was truley interested in his job that Threadbear referred to, and come up with a creative and compelling enough diatribe!
Threadbear- I agree the car is entirely too competent to be considered a microcar in the classic sense.
Rusty- Thanks for keeping me up intill 5:30 a.m.
P50- "suely not?!"- please elaborate as I know not what you are trying to convey to me.
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I would be most interested in what kind of paperwork you received with the vehicle after purchasing it.
note that paperwork that shows you now have legal title does not mean it is eligible for registering for road use.
That is an issue many people seem to confuse.
If it was true that having a "title" to a vehicle would enable it to be Registered for Road Use, then all ATVs and Quad Bikes and Farm Vehicles could be licensed for Road Use.
There are some exceptions for "Farm Use" vehicles where they can temporarily be driven on roads when moving from one location to another.
Good luck trying to convince the DMV that the Mazda has agricultural uses.
and for those just joining us, this is about a vehicle in THE USA, not the UK (where you can apparently drive a Quad Bike on the road...)
One LEGAL way to get the car on the road is to "sell" it to someone in Canada (where the car is legal for road use).
Pay for their Registration and Insurance. A Canadian Citizen (or any Foreign National for that matter) can bring just about ANY vehicle into the USA for their own personal use for up to a year.
Then you are just "borrowing" it.
That is how Canadians can drive over the border and drive around the USA.
I know of a number of vehicles in the USA that were "brought in" by Foreigners and sort of "left behind" despite the rule that the vehicle must return as well.
That is most likely how this vehicle got into the US in the first place.
There is very little enforcement of this, where-as if you tried to register it as a Show or Race Vehicle, you would find a pile of paperwork and a rather well-staffed and informed group from Customs keeping track of you.
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Wasn't planning any agricultural excursions. However the Canadian connection sounds like the least worst of the quasi legal ways so far.
Any tips on how to find a person that cares in the NHTSA? I would like to try to establish a working relationship prior to making any request for determination of eligibility for a Show and Display status.
OOOPS!- I just took my first ride around the block (in the dark). It turned into 3 laps- each faster and funner than the last.
Apparently I'm going to have to hide the key from myself as that was the most fun I've ever had outside of a race car. ;D
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I like the idea of going round the rules by using a Canadian connection. It almost has to be done since clearly doing things correctly is made difficult by Spot Bots. I always take great pleasure from circumventing silly or arbitrary rules invented by some knob who clearly has nothing better to do. This to the point of baiting in some cases like an awkward security guard or something. This is best done by getting loads of people to get him to enact his pet rule to the point where they totally loose it just at an inappropriate moment. I found this is better than my thumping the security guard which has happened as well - NEC a classic case. They still do not work very well sparko but you loose the moral high ground and cannot hang about. Still there are places where sense is just not present, like Excel, Docklands. It is very hard to find a van driver that will go near the place now and it is effecting their business since having a presence there has a hidden inflated logistic cost due to their ridiculous delivery rules. Indeed I have a list of places I no longer go as I refuse to support the local economy which spurned the silly rules, like London. The countryside would be better off quarantined from the place.
It is depressing that the Lands of the Free are not anymore. You would probably have more chance mucking about in silly cars in Belize or India. Strangely places still based on the Old England system and full of forms yet still to invent silly rules since applying sensible ones is hard enough. They also recognise the value of money rather than having a system of jealousy based on a notion of socialism where it is bad to be well off so therefore good to not be well off and not work very hard yet get paid for it. Far more dangerous than a bunch of ragheads that do not really exist outside State invention. Unfortunately the jealous equate ownership of cars as a product of wealth so having a few or rare and silly ones means you must be well off and therefore a swine. We know that in the majority of cases that is not true as it is our hobby and in fact all our money is in a few cars rather than a fancy holiday but the tag sticks. So we are a target for indirect taxation, paperwork and uncooperative State workers. Just wait till after this election if the wrong lot get in. We will pay more to maintain our hobby.
Rant practise for the International Rockall Rant - bit like the Estofed but damper.
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Sometimes I find, when dealing with the Illinois Secretary of State's office (issue titles and plates in Illinois), that ignorance is the way to go. If you just play dumb (easy for me), then that allows the beaurocrats to feel sorry and they just do what you wanted in the first place. Since you do not deal directly with the decision makers, only the counter staff, once they submit your application half the battle is won. In the event that something does not pan out in the main office, they will always send you documentation on what further documents you need to satisfy them, albeit stupid, then you "sort of give them" what they want, and they are happy. Sometimes frustrating and it may take a few rounds of funny papers, but eventually they come around. I find that once you either have a Title (from any State, or V5 even) , just an official looking document, then the Illinois title is issued pretty quickly, within a month. If you only have a Bill of Sale, or Custom Entry Form, Illinois now have a criteria that the new owner must either have a bond (surety or cash) of twice the stated value of the vehicle, and the title is issued and the bond is returned in two years if no previous owner is found and/or complains. Would this happen - I don't think so, for how would a previous owner know that the State had issued another title? Just paperpushing covering their derriers. Once you have the Illinois Title, I have never had a problem obtaining plates for it. Sometimes the Titles have peculiar descriptions on the Make of car. I have an Austin A30 which came with title from Missourie, and the name was badly printed, even though on the application I put down clearly Austin, the new title reads make of car, "TIN" model "A". It did take me over two months recently to obtain a Title for my Mini Comtess, with only a scrawled note in French, with my own translation copied onto it, and the Customs Entry document. Their problem was the Vin (chassi s) number was only something like F26, and after verification by my friend, the local police, the title was issued. I have never had a problem obtaining Illinois plates, either regular or "antique" once you have the Title. Remember, in America, the Title is proof of ownership, and the plates are bought and issued separately. The plates are not part of the history of the car, only the right to drive it much as your Tax Disc. The other requirement for plates, is that you must list the insurance carrier on the application. Confusing......simple, just go with the flow and don't make waves. Remember that Illinois will not give a title for a grey market imported car without the Customs Entry doc, the HS7 (EPA) and the 3520 (safety)forms but these requirements are waived on the form, if the car is older than 21 years and 25 years respectivley. However, an authentic looking document from US Customs, may not put up "red flags" on needing these forms if it is a Bill of Sale issued by the US Customs or Treasury or whoever sold the car to you. If in doubt, bluff, or plead stupidity - ignorance is not a defense! Last year, on importing several cars, The Secretary of State was a royal pain for they insisted on having copies of the HS7 and 3520 forms, which Customs keep, and I finally received a letter from the Customs stating that if the Entry Summary is issued by their department, then all the other forms such as the HS7 and 3520, are in order and the State does not need them. It also stated that the Customs department does not issue letters of compliance, that if it is alowed entry, then all requirements are met. I recieved my titles with a week after faxing them that letter. I talked to the gal in the head office and she said that the person who used to issue titles for privately imported cars had retired, and so this new person was going by the book, and this new person did not understand the complexities of US Customs and the inference of Entry. I will be hoping that this will not happen again this month when I have some more coming in. Sorry for the rambles...Ian.
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I like your Austin A 30 - Tin A naming, I have had 2 London Black Taxi cabs for private use, the manufacturer changed its name to London Taxi-cab International, but my first cab was made when the company was still called Carbodies. Despite living in Southwark where more cabbies live than any other borough in the country, the DVLA sent my new tax disc nicely filled in: "Make: Car Bones"
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I don't think Steven is going to have any problems getting legal TITLE to the vehicle right now.
The vehicle is in the US and sold to him by the US Marshall's Service.
The problem is that the car cannot be LEGALLY allowed to be driven on the road.
To find an individual that will somehow grant you the status to do this is beyond their legal capacity and amounts to nothing more than falsified paperwork.
Someone at the DMV might feel sorry for you and agree to let you register the car but in reality this is no different than if you had slipped them a $100 to "help" the paperwork along.
Either method results in License Plates and Registration, both in spite of the law.
There are many people driving around on faked Registration and really the ONLY problem with this is liability in case of an accident.
As I mentioned earlier, THAT is when you will discover that your paperwork will not help you.
I am pretty sure that all the cars and things IAN mentioned are ALREADY legal for road use, they are just obscure vehicles that the DMV is clueless about.
regarding finding someone in the NHTSA - why should someone there stick their neck out to allow your car in despite rules against it?
also- note that I mentioned that going this route WILL result in your vehicle being documented and monitored. (rather heavily from what I have heard)
another thought to get around the liability issue is to start a corporation that owns the vehicle.
this may help to shield your personal assets in the case of some sort of problem that insurance will not cover.
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Ian,
Were all your cars 25 or more years old at the time of your presenting papers to your DMV? If they were they were exempt from regulation and nobody needed to twist any rules. If they were less than that many years old i would be interested in at least hearing the details.
Jim,
So far I have found out that Nick England who is somehow associated with the NHTSA is not the sympathetic ear to talk to. You are right that they want to know who they are talking to and with regards to what automoile right from the first word. I got another referral from him but am not going to even give the make of the car untill and unless somebody convinces me for good reason that this would be in my better interest. Avery difficult tight rope to walk.
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Yes, they were all over the magical 25 years rule. The point that I was trying to make is that I think that problem is really obtaining the Title, and then the registration flows easier. The insurance companies, or at least mine, do not question whether the car is legal or not, they assume that if it does have valid plates, then it is ok. My insurance company even wants four pictures. One from both sides front quarter looking back, an interior shot and a picture of the engine. All my three wheelers are registered and titled and insured as Sedans or Convertables, not tricycle or motor cycle. A chief inspector of the Secretary of State, who lives in town here, many years ago told me to register them as sedans, for they are enclosed, and the convertables, to register as convertables, not to mention the number of wheels. The insurance has never picked up on this either, and they have never questioned RH drive. Even if the US Customs waiver for EPA and Safety requirements is sort of automatic, and common knowledge, this new person at the SoS office read the Illinois Handbook on titleing and registering imported vehicles, where it states that ALL vehicles must conform to the current EPA and NHSA (the national road safety board or whatever the correct achronym is) unless waived by Federal entities. She construed this to mean that the owner must present the waiver at titleing, which is not possible, for US Customs keeps all the forms they approve and will not make copies for anyone. So her overseer advised her to issue titles (at least in my case) that if the Customs Entry document is presented, then all the waivers are in order and that they do not need to see them. I don't know the legalities of Law Enforcement questioning the registration if issued by their State DMV. This could open up a bag of worms, or the proverbial Pandora's Box. Jim would know more of this aspect than me. Would driving an illegally imported vehicle, which obviously fits in the surroundings of many types of road legal vehicles, put up warning flags to warrant a stop and questioning the validity of a legitimate Title and registration. I really do not think that many officers would be able to make this call.. Even so, it is far better to do the things correctly and by the book, so a particular possible future event may not occur. One other point to mention could be, that in my town and county, there are no safety, pollution or road-worthy checks done on a passenger vehicle at any time, but if you reside in an area where an annual inspection is required, then this may put up the "red flags" on the vehicle, if it is not in their data base. I don't know how that works. So just more confusion with no easy solution to problem at hand. It is your judgement call..............Ian :P