RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: adi on June 05, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
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Good morning people! Been a while.
I got a NSU prinz IV today, which, apparently, came from a museum at some point. I thought that was pretty cool, till I remembered the old owner said it came from an auction from the Microcar museum, which I assume is THE microcar museum, the same people who mysteriously forgot where my Heinkel came from (even tho they owned it), and have public relation skills that are EVEN worse then mine, and seem to have kept half of their stock (I mean 'exhibits) in damp sheds, etc etc. Unless there is more then one microcar museum in the UK?
Apparently this thing was even an exhibit.
Anyway, the Prinz has a little name tag/pin badge (the kind that people wear at shows to identify themselves I guess) in the glove box, which is a Isetta/Heinkel type shape silhouette with the name ''something Cooper'' on it. I don't remember the first name, and the badge is back at the garage with the Prinz, for some reason I think it may be Mike, but the guy who delivered it was called Mike, and my brain is kinda broken, so maybe im just getting them confused.
The fact that the name badge is in the shape of a bubble car would I assume mean that it was at some microcar rally or something. Anybody happen to know this Prinz, or Mike (?) Cooper? Maybe he would be happy to be re-united with his name badge?
I know its a real small world when it comes to microcars, and everybody knows everybody, so anybody recognize this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/adibrook/100_2953.jpg)
Strangely enough, this car is in very good condition.
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yep, that is the same car sold for a Hammer price of £1300 in October 2008:
http://www.goldingyoung.com/catalogues/MS181008/page1.htm (http://www.goldingyoung.com/catalogues/MS181008/page1.htm)
find lot #15
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Wow. I ended up with two cars from the same place? Its a small world I guess!
Anyone know who Mike Cooper is?
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Yes, MIke and Paula Cooper are the museum owners.
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Ooooh, interesting.
So I guess he would totally deny ever seeing the car, right? That seems to be their usual policy for vehicles that they had in the past. Don't know anything, wasn't even there, car? what car? Who are you? What? ;D
Luckily this car has a live identity, so I don't need to rely on previous owners to find out it's history.
That's pretty cool tho. Why would his name badge be in the glove compartment?
It came with a bunch of spares, including two sets of spare points in the glove compartment, a load of NOS stuff (mainley service bits, as well as brake parts), and various stuff like that, and looked like it has been very well looked after. As far as I can tell, it's unwelded.
Could it be that the guy himself owned it?
Has anyone here actually ever been to the microcar museum, before that auction? What was it like? I am kind of curious now, because from general gossip I assumed that the microcar museum was just a front for selling bubble cars, however this car looks like it was pretty much immaculate! It looks like the kind of thing you would see in an actual real museum.
It starts and drives and everything. I took the master cylinder off today, and underneath was regularly waxoyled and looked pretty much perfect. To be honest, I don't think I have seen many tax exempt cars in this condition.
I can't remember what mileage it had on it, but it wasn't very much.
Also its had a few subtle period mods, like those fog-lights (complete with old fashioned switches), and an old vacuum gage.
The most intriguing thing about it is that it has a tow bar with electrics. I don't know what the hell you can pull with 600cc, I can't imagine it can pull itself very well, let alone anything else, but it definitely has a tow bar. It looks reasonably well fitted too, with the structural bar going between the rear chassis legs being hidden behind the rear valance, so there is no big metal bar sticking out, just the tow ball.
I am pretty happy tho, I swapped a 1200 beetle project with no engine (but freshly restored) for it.
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Hi Adi. Of course we have all been to the museum, it was great! Many lovely cars, most belonging to the museum, some on loan but they also had a wing that held some unrestored cars too which was equally interesting. You sound very cynical, the museum was not a front for selling cars. I can fully understand people not wanting to get involved with buyers after vehicles have been sold at auction, thats one of the prime reasons for selling something at auction, its anonymous because you are selling through an agent and should not have to have any dealings with buyers afterwards. The auction as I understand it was a means of making a fresh start with a view to a change of premises, I'm not sure if your NSU was an exhibit because other peoples cars were also sold at the same auction. There is a very helpful owners club for NSU cars which I suggest you join or is this one just passing through your hands briefly like the scootacar? When you drive the car you will see that 600cc propels the car very very well and is quite capable of pulling a trailer which is probably why it was fitted, certainly equal to any Beetle. When I drove one I was very impressed an feel the Prinz is most underrated. Maybe you should sell it to me! Cheers, Bob
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Mike Cooper used to drive this NSU Prinz, which is a rather good example. Indeed I think he attended the Dutch Rally in it which could be where the name badge came from. Amongst his faults as a microcar enthusiast and Museum owner MIke actually drives his restored/good cars when he has the time. Driving museum exhibits is probably frowned on in some quarters these days.
In line with the majority of Auto Museums in the country the Bubblecar Museum bought and sold cars in part to gain better and better exhibits and in part to subsidise the Museum itself which is a subsistence business normally requiring a benefactor or associated businesses to support the collection being accessible to the public. This is why there are various grants and public money available to aid the creation of such enterprises that clearly cannot exist via self funding. Where good exhibits were obtainable they bought them, where not they got the best they could and if there were a gap they borrowed cars off people like me. Over the years the borrowed stock reduced to be replaced by owned stock.
Many make an assumption over the Bubblecar Museum Auction. It was a sale of some exhibits and of excess stock prior to moving to a new premises. They never marketed nor intended to sell all their cars. There was an assumption, incorrect, that all the cars they owned were on one site. I was aware this was not so and was included in the fun of watching the nosey search out the secrets and IDs of what was on site over the period of the auction full in the knowledge they were not seeing the full picture. They retained the core of the exhibits required for the different Museum now under construction which has microcars in it but is not the Bubblecar Museum. In part this move is in response to the negative reaction of some of the MIcro world to the Bubblecar Museum, a topic of continuing debate, and in part an inability to increase the size or improve the infrastructure of the Byard's Leap site. I am sure the debate will continue but the fact remains this Museum was created, opened and expanded. This is more than anyone else has managed in Britain. It remains to be seen if the 'price' paid was worth it for all sides. Looking at the bigger picture Europe has lost quite a few Micro orientated museums over the years. Some of those were sold off. I see little difference to those cases and the Coopers save the Coopers are opening again. I think the fundamental error in thinking is to assume a collection or Museum is a safe haven for a car that somehow bucks the rules and costs of living. Market forces and time mean all owners are only custodians of well kept cars and possibly saviours of crappers.
Your Heinkel was not an exhibit but an item of stock. I do not know the deal it came on but in all probability it came as a part of a job lot containing items Mike wanted for his top line cars and display. I think he cleared out Bob doofer of Citroen fame (remains of 7 Treinkels and the previously Dan Jeavons extensive spares stock) and since Bob was selling restored bodyshells by taking in rusty ones for already repaired ones clearly the IDs, if any, got mixed up, as did the parts of cars, before MIke ever had the cars. This has been discussed before and at the auction the lotting or processing of the cars led to the car not coming as was understood by the auction buyer, known well to me. He had a choice of rejecting the car or accepting the deal as was. He choose not to back it and the window of opportunity to resolve that issue closed at that point. Later he, like Mike, got a better example and decided to out the car which is where you came in, swapping it for the rather nice white Scootacar. So the car came to the Museum as a crapper, remained a crapper stored under canvas, was auctioned as crapper and swapped on as crapper. It is not too surprising that it was, in fact, crap.
The NSU is the precise opposite circumstance as Mike found a minter, bought it in as an exhibit and used it. It actually was slightly cheap at the auction I thought, but then NSU are an under valued marque not aided by having a rather limited Club supporting things. Thus you have the bargain you did not get with the Heinkel. Well done! You will find it far better than a 1200 Beetle, even with an engine! It will tow a 350kg Eriba Puck if you can find one, or other lightweight trailer. Indeed if you drive it you will wonder why you bother with VW until they became badge engineered NSU's!!! Great little cars if not rusty.
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I assumed that the microcar museum was just a front for selling bubble cars
No chance, prior to the auction the museum had under gone some radical changes, not only showcasing cars, but incorporating loads of period ephemera including their collection of articles/photos which were made easily accessible to visitors, personally I can't wait to visit the museums reincarnation at the new site. :)
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just by the by bob we havent ALL been to the museum - probably by along way . will get to the new one one day but not exactly local to me and i do get about !
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A true enthusiast would have got there no matter what the distance Richard! ;) ;) In fact if you look at a map it was closer to you than it was to me!!!!!
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Girt staple on the M6 gets in the way though.
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oh i am an enthusiast bob just not interested in museums - or shows for that matter :)
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Is there a camper van museum?
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dont even start on that one al ! ;D i seem to be one of the last happy campers , also preferring camp cooking to the pub . my family dont ! probably why i do :D
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The reason for my problem with the bubble car museum is not because of what the Heinkel is, but because the guy would not even talk to me about it. I am not complaining about the Heinkel, I did after all willingly get it, I am complaining about the total 'talking to brick wall' type responses I got from them.
Before anybody says, yes, I know, LEGALLY they are fully within their right to not tell me anything, since it was auctioned off and etc. But, how much of a mean person do you have to be to actually do that?
I mean, if someone called me up and said ''hey, I have your old VW coupe that you owned years ago, can you tell me anything about it'' I would at least TRY to remember who I got it from, and stuff. I wouldn't even dream of saying ''sorry you didnt buy it from me, i don't know anything about it, not my problem, bye''.
Its all very well and good that its possible to work out roughly where it came from from what you and other people said, but why would the museum not tell me that themselves? Thats what bugs me. All they had to do was say ''your Heinkel came as an incomplete shell from Mike Doofer who deals in citroens, and I took parts off it and sold it on'' or something along those lines. It would have taken that guy exactly 3 seconds and one breath's worth of oxygen, and thats it. Yet, instead of doing that, they chose to pretend to not know anything about it.
It doesn't matter what the car is, or it's condition. Be it a Heinkel, a beetle, or even not a car, I am not talking about the car, I am talking about their totally unhelpful attitude.
As for the Prinz, its coming along pretty well, should be road-legal as soon as I can get some brake cylinders.
Does anybody know what sort of parts the NSU owners club stocks, and what sort of prices? I emailed them asking about it, because I don't want to join just to find out that they only stock limited things and they are more expensive then getting them from Germany, asking them about their parts range, but they havn't replied yet. Anybody a member? On their site they say they stock everything needed to keep cars on the road, does that really mean what it says (I heard owners clubs saying that before and then it turns out that they only have a few NOS doors, some bushes and another seller's items re-branded and for twice the price :lol:). I don't really do the whole owner's club thing, as you know, but would join if they stock a lot of reasonably priced parts, as getting my freind in German to send me out parts all the time is inconvenient.
So far I need: All 4 wheel cylinders, master cylinder (if it's cheaper then the 90 pounds or so to re-sleeve the old one), fuel pump (or rebuild kit if they are rebuildable) and a clutch. I know the wheel cylinders are available from several parts stockists in Europe, but since they are unique to the Prinz they are quiet pricy.
I improvised a tool for pulling the brake drums, and got them off successfully without breaking them.
Also, it seems that at some point in the car's life, somebody majorly messed up one of the spindles, some idiot just forced a nut onto it, cross threading it badly. Luckily it mainley damaged the nut, not the spindle itself, and once I get a die in that thread, it should clean up OK. But, who the hell would do that to such a clean car?? Surely not the bubble car museum guy?
Does anybody happen to know how to change the clutch on these?
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"Isetta owner" recently bought a Prinz and joined the club, he told me he got a lot of usefull help from them. You could send him a private message and have a chat.
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A true enthusiast would have got there no matter what the distance....
Oh, now you're just making me feel bad for slacking off on this one, but at least I've got lot #42 from their auction as a souvenir.
http://www.goldingyoung.com/catalogues/MS181008/page2.htm (http://www.goldingyoung.com/catalogues/MS181008/page2.htm)
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Was that the KV?
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A true enthusiast would have got there no matter what the distance....
Oh, now you're just making me feel bad for slacking off on this one, but at least I've got lot #42 from their auction as a souvenir.
http://www.goldingyoung.com/catalogues/MS181008/page2.htm (http://www.goldingyoung.com/catalogues/MS181008/page2.htm)
Sorry, to aks a stupid question... Are those prices real? Some are less than 40% of prices here... :o The Fiat Multipla and others for example...
Are there any more such auctions ::)
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Are those prices real? Some are less than 40% of prices here....
I submitted my maximum bid in advance from about 5000 miles away, so I don't know how the auction itself went, but I can confirm that the hammer price for my lot [Bob-- yes, the KV] was ?1400 as shown. Lucky me, it was one of the few lots to significantly exceed its estimate. The folks at the museum made a very nice shipping crate for it, though.
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I cannot answer for the PR from the Museum. It seems to be a matter of luck as to who has had a good or bad experience. Of course I know them well, they do not suffer fools gladly and have put themselves under enormous pressure by moving several businesses, cars, house etc from one place to an unfinished and unstarted place with no other way of making money. So you were talking to busy people.
I say fools, this includes a wide range of what to some count as non-foolish enquiry. In this case you had a car they had already discussed with the previous buyer. I could tell you without reference that you would get little information as I suspect this had revolved round the mix up over the lotting. Both Mike and I have been dealers. You just know when you reach a point where you are not getting any merit from a topic so it gets blanked otherwise you just revisit the same thing again and again, which we are doing now. To be blunt, what benefit is it for Mike talking about this? In most cases only negative. I can see where he is coming from and I am exactly the same when people question me over something I have no wish to expand on or want information I do not wish to disseminate for some reason of my own. For all we know the shell you have was subject to an illegal number plate sale and was passed on with a deed of trust to obscure its ID, perhaps it should have been scrapped. I used to buy from number plate dealers and took cars that had to be broken up as part of the deal. I did so, even recycling some very good cars in the process. To continue trade trust has to be maintained. So there are cars out there that are bitsas but that is better than scrapping them for their weight. Sadly the anoraks will not accept this and pick at the scabs and that has resulted in quite a few cars being destroyed by those that do have something to hide. Blame who you like but this is reality. I can list some I attempted to liberate but will not. You would cry as there were rarities. That is the nub of providing information, once out its Pandora time be it private, register or business. Unfortunately thanks to our stupid Government system the owner of a car is not empowered to have access to the history of that vehicle nor a title deed proving ownership. Not only that they conspired to create a trade in IDs. Until that changes you are hostage to a variety of problems in gaining information about a vehicle not aided by the Government encouraging the Councils to throw the ownership details they did have away. How jolly convenient. You want to gripe at someone have a go at those silly ******s.
Prinz.
Clutch has to be about as easy as a clutch change can be and is done in situ if you want.
Brake cylinders I used fitted quite a few other cars at the time so not sure about that factoid. Seem to recall rear Audi 80/100 and VW Golf, of course these were really NSU inspired so no great surprise there. Used to be £25 a throw from a factors. Certainly seal kits are about and they might hone up.
I found the NSU club very disorganised for parts. They had an old leaking shed full of stuff but little idea what is in it. They were traditionally slow to respond. I ended up buying 4 tons of ex dealer stock and traded with Mellman? in Germany or sourced at Mannhiem as it was cheaper and quicker stock and upon getting out of NSU I sold it well - the club failing to purchase the cages despite a low price being asked. This was some 10 to 15 years ago so things might have changed but I found the Club had a lot of inertia to anyone who was about it and jealous of activity, like finding Sport Prinz and Spyder, as it made them less rare. A shame as the cars a brilliant with annoying faults
Rear drum, this has a habit of being loose. You need to check out the fit and get it clean and then a good clamp on it with a good lockplate. You can tell if it is not home as it will not roll correctly normally, being eccentric, so look for run out or there will be an audible knock as it is loose. Do not confuse brake snatch as run out. The drums go oval as applying the handbrake on hot ali/steel insert drums sets up a strain. If you have round rear drums you are a lucky fellow! It is always worth cleaning and lubing the brake adjusters. These are a weak design.
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I had problems with the adjusters. They were all siezed solid, and two of them were rounded off so that a 16mm spanner fitted them instead of a 17mm. I got around it in the end by heating them up to red hot, that freed them up OK, and all 8 now turn.
From what I found out so far, the rear cylinders are the same as very early Audi 100s, and a few other Audis, but only from the early 1970s (up to about 72 for some, up to 76 for the 100). They are 15mm bored. Unfortunately those early 70s Audis are very hard to find as well, so I have not found any sources in the UK so far.
The front cylinders are exactly the same casting, only 19mm instead of 15mm bore, and are unique to the Prinz by the looks of it. After hours of searching through old catalogs and crossover tables and stuff, I still can't find a single car that uses them apart from the Prinz.
Unfortunately, they will not hone out, they are too badly pitted. There was obviously water in the brake fluid.
You still happen to have any of your stockpile of parts? Any of them for sale, or is it your private stash only?
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Oh, it seems the front cylinders may NOT be unique, they may have been used in the DAF 44/55, and also the Goggomobil T/TS 250-300-400, whatever that means.
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The later Goggo does have a larger version. Uwe Staufenburg sells them. I did find another car that used them, maybe the front drum of a Golf/Polo thingy before there were discs. I have my old parts supplier books but not the time to look at them now. I have nothing much NSU left save screens, a steering switch set and some odds and sods including a tow hitch strangely.
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http://www.goggomobil.com/ehome/ehome.html This is his web site
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Forgot to comment on fuel pump. The mechanical pump is OK as far as it goes. They do weaken though and with the volatility of modern fuel, set to get worse by chucking ethanol in thus knackering a load more cars as a 'green' measure (read less imported oil per fuel duty litre, kerr-ching), it is worth considering a pump that offers better pressure on an air cooled car. Without a good pump do not fit an in-line filter and in fact it is bad practice to use them on air-cooled cars unless you have too. It promotes hot fuel in the line more prone to vaporisation and thus running a weak mixture with all the associated probs. To this end it is acceptable to disable the mechanical pump and place an electric one under the fuel tank up front (to keep it away from the heat of the engine bay). This gives better performance as it drives off vapour on the occasions it can build up, thus the engine runs better. The fuel can be routed through the disabled pump or a new line made. Be aware that a mechanical pump seal failure on a Prinz, functioning or disabled, can fill the sump of the engine with fuel. This can reach a good oxygen/fuel ratio and blow up distributing your engine into a very pretty pattern suitable for the Tate Modern but perhaps not so handy for picking up Auntie Flo. Well even NSU are not perfect!
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It's a very common problem with VWs too. That's exactly what happened to my Prinz. As soon as I got it, as I am used to VWs, the first thing I did was pull the dipstick and smell it, and sure enough it was very thin and smelled like fuel, and also was very over-filled. Mr Previous Owner has been running it with a broken pump it seems. so I drained the oil and disconnected the pump, and at the moment am running it from a 'redneck gastank' (just a metal can hung off the open bootlid for gravity feed).
I see the pump (at least in pictures, I havn't seen my pump yet since its so awkwardly placed) has a ring of screws around it, I assume it's rebuildable. Is it possible to just get a rebuild kit for it?
Otherwise of course I could fit a Facet pump and a pressure regulator, but I would rather keep it original if I can.
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I cannot see why it would be a special pump. No notion of source though.