RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Invacar model 70 on December 30, 2011, 07:11:27 AM
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Hi All,
I have the opportunity to buy a Super Contesse (4 wheel 50cc) or possibly a Mini Contesse (3 Wheel 50cc, now in France).
Does anyone know what taxation class they would fall into in the UK? I think the 3 wheel will be a trike so £16 per year tax and the 4 wheel will be a micro car £110 per year tax. Is this correct?
Is there a simple guide to what needs to be done to import and register into the UK? I think the Super that has been brought into the UK has no import paperwork. Neither have French registration documents, as under 50cc do not have registration in France.
Can these vehicles be registered and used on the UK roads?
Is there any other information that i shouold know before doing a deal with the guy.
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Be interested to know what the correct rules are as I have only ever sorted out pre '73, therefore Hiistoric class, vehicles of this size, thus avoiding all the hassles.
It seems the 4 wheeled cars end up being classed as a Quad at least. That is slightly restrictive. The lack of official registration and manufacturer records will make things more difficult as the officials like to have proof of date of production, E marked parts and a recognised marque with continuity of VIN number. Failure risks falling into silly tests and Q plates. I would not be bothered with the hassle for a pretty unusable car on British roads. People have successfully registered these cars however. I suspect the proportion of registrations to cars owned is not great though. My Mini Comtesse is registered but while the previous owner drove it locally I would not as I think it would be to dangerous round here.
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If your Mini Comtesse is registered Al you must have some useful details on th V5C.
Having three wheels, it is probably a trike.
I heard that if it is less than 400kg it doesn't need seat belts?
Also could possibly be a moped because the 50cc Sans Permis cars all seem to have a pedal arrangement.
Our recent new member, Skootashaun, Has MOT'd a Willam 125cc (and I think he is an MOT tester) so should give good advice on MOT if not on registration.
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The DVLA guide is here
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf)
I've never imported a car, but my experience of the DVLA is that they are pretty helpful if you ring and speak to someone.
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If I had the V5C in hand I could tell you but it is stuck at previous owners mother's under nagging embargo of some sort I think.
MOT is down to having the licence. Three wheelers are dyeing out so getting tricky. Quads are not and strangely in the country might be easier than the city as the farmers use them a lot. At the moment my MOT station can do everything till you need plating. I am not sure what happens when Mike retires as he has all the odd licences. He is 70 now.
Mini Comtesse has three or five wheels depending on how you count them. Well mine does.
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The DVLA guide is here
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf (http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf)
I've never imported a car, but my experience of the DVLA is that they are pretty helpful if you ring and speak to someone.
Lucky you.
I found them painfully inefficient but then I am normally asking a difficult question. Not helped by the LVOs not being linked or part of DVLA. They can get you going round in circles.
It seems to work thus.
If the system works and you are doing something that is a normal type routine it works well.
If you do something not of normal routine or it goes wrong the system has not always the flexibility to resolve the issues. It is highly dependant on the individual you are in contact with. Once a task goes wrong or dead ends you are deep poo as it relies on finding someone able to extract the relevant information out of the crossed over ends and put the enquiry back into a route that has an end that is actually a conclusion. It is a bit like trying to sort out a bad computer programme. You need to know the right question to ask to get the correct answer.
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HI Richard, looking at the dvla website it would appear you will need a dating certificate which rumcars will be able to supply, contact Mike Shepherd, he will have all the sales brochures so will be able to date it reasonably accurately. Do you have his email?
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contact Mike Shepherd, he will have all the sales brochures so will be able to date it reasonably accurately. Do you have his email?
I do now you have emailed it to me ;D ;D
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Thanks for the fast replies guys. It looks like a hard job to get a V5 for a normal car. The guide has far reaching words like "VAT" (Gulp) and "Type Approval" (Double Gulp). It may just be too much grief for me to bother with.
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Thanks for the fast replies guys. It looks like a hard job to get a V5 for a normal car. The guide has far reaching words like "VAT" (Gulp) and "Type Approval" (Double Gulp). It may just be too much grief for me to bother with.
Well it is not new so no VAT to pay really but you might need to prove it was paid when bought new to avoid it now.
Type Approval is the reason you need some official documentation to nail the car to date made, manufacturer, consistent VIN number etc. That is best served by the French driving documentation and the original bill of sale. It used to be in France that to sell a car you had to insure the thing was roadworthy as part of the sale process. So there was a clear reason to not pass documents on as the car became a machine/art/static collectors item not allowed on the road and thus no residue responsibility to the previous owner if there was a later problem. That my have now got included with end of life laws for all I know. There will be some papers for the car but it is if the owner will pass them on or if they were passed to him.
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our p50 replicas are classed as tricyles as they are 160kg all up,as they are new cars each and everyone has to go for an IVA (independant vehicle assesment), as a builder of hotrods, unless the cars age can be proved with original documents, reg number, chassis number etc then that too has to go for inspection and would be allocated a Q plate as it is of indeterminate origin/age. the implications of such an examination are many. to include sharp edges, e marked lighting, mirrors ,glasing,etc etc.2 strokes are considerd by vosato be the work of satan and are thought to be the harbingers of armageddon! your local DVLA office will be able to advise on what you need to do, but 1st i suggest you get some practice in at jumping through hoops and going round in circles. good luck.
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Does your p50 have seat belts?
Looks like we should give you a three wheel and four wheel Sans Permis to try through the system and see where it falls down (as you have the contacts). Won't take up much of your time!!!
I am going to try to get my minicat through as a moped. It drives through the normal moped back wheel (in the middle) the 4" outer wheels are just like stabalisers.
Will I need to wear a helmet though?
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you dont need seatbelts under a certain weight, think its 225 kg but dont quote me, also, any road tyres, ie a tyre that is in contact with the road surface HAS to carry Emarks AND be load and speed rated for the application.,that would include your "stabilizers". from experience, there are no tyres with correct markings available under 6", and even those took some sourcing.
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This question of registering old sans permis cars has been kicked around for some time now, what we need is a trail blazer to answer the questions once and for all, I nominate Barry [isetta owner]! Reasons being he appears to have the time and secondly he has half of europes sans permis cars in his garage! :D :D
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but 1st i suggest you get some practice in at jumping through hoops and going round in circles.
I think you should be grateful you are not the inventor of the Ecomobile (http://eco.peraves.ch/ndexe.htm), a cabin motorcycle with retractable stabilisers. And just to make it harder, the guy is in Switzerland where I think they have honed their bureaucrats to a level that ours cannot even dream of. The Swiss transport guys said it had to pass car laws when it had the stabilisers down and motorcycle rules when they were up - and of course these rules are incompatible.
Just to show what tenacity is, the inventor had to take the government to the high court, using the argument that they were creating a restriction to free trade, in order to get it passed. Now isn't even VOSA easier than that?
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you dont need seatbelts under a certain weight, think its 225 kg but dont quote me, also, any road tyres, ie a tyre that is in contact with the road surface HAS to carry Emarks AND be load and speed rated for the application.,that would include your "stabilizers". from experience, there are no tyres with correct markings available under 6", and even those took some sourcing.
I never thought the 4" stabiliser tyres would be a problem. Converting to 6" looks almost impossible without cutting away bodywork.
Perhaps I could raise everything up and inch.
I could take the whole body (and stabilisers) off, get it MOT'd as a moped and then put everything back on!
Or, hope that my local bike MOT man doesn't check the 4" tyres. (whilst he is rolling about on the floor laughing).
I will definitely try to get this monster on the road, I don't think there is anyone (still alive) that has driven one in traffic.
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This question of registering old sans permis cars has been kicked around for some time now, what we need is a trail blazer to answer the questions once and for all, I nominate Barry [isetta owner]! Reasons being he appears to have the time and secondly he has half of europes sans permis cars in his garage! :D :D
Bob
I was discussing this with my 'advisor' this morning and we decided that we should have a go at getting these vehicles licensed.
It's about time we sorted it out for once and for all.
If there is anyone out there that already has a Sans Permis 50cc (or 125cc perhaps) with a UK registration, please get in touch.
Barry
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I salute you sir! Let us know how you get on.
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its not the mot man you need to worry about, they generally dont know there a**e from there elbow, if you have no docs for a vehicle it will have to be inspected, and if its age/origin is in question,it will be tested as a "new" vehicle,as per our P50s, which incidentally took 6 mnths to develop to the point where we passed the neccesary type approval tests. talking to the guy who did our test, he commented on the tyre situation saying that he recently failed a vehicle with stabilizers as they are considered road wheels and they were not e marked,neither would he pass it as a tricycle as it in effect had 5 wheels,plus there is a thing called design and construction,which is subjective to say the least. if the tester sees that a 3 wheel vehicle has been fitted with stabilizers, he is within his rights to fail it on the grounds that it is clearly unstable,hence the fitting of said stabilizers, thus constituting "bad design". as for taking off the body, stabilizers etc before test, its true they cant fail something that isnt there, however, if a vehicle is presented for test and appears to be unfinished or incomplete, a refusal of test will be issued. having got a p50 through a test succesfully and registered with dvla,all legal and above board, i feel confident we could get most things through, unfortunately,the time and costs involved in doing so would probably make it not viable. however, if you have money to spare, we would consider taking on such a task. good luck.
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I salute you sir! Let us know how you get on.
Big Al says he has a Mini Comtesse with a registration (he also says he has a Lawil / Willam with a registration).
So far he has not come up with any scans of the V5c's.
This would be a really good start.
Proving to DVLA and VOSA that these things are already in the system would tick a very big box.
Come on Big Al, Less cryptic messages and more scanning please!
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its not the mot man you need to worry about, they generally dont know there a**e from there elbow, if you have no docs for a vehicle it will have to be inspected, and if its age/origin is in question,it will be tested as a "new" vehicle,as per our P50s, which incidentally took 6 mnths to develop to the point where we passed the neccesary type approval tests. talking to the guy who did our test, he commented on the tyre situation saying that he recently failed a vehicle with stabilizers as they are considered road wheels and they were not e marked,neither would he pass it as a tricycle as it in effect had 5 wheels,plus there is a thing called design and construction,which is subjective to say the least. if the tester sees that a 3 wheel vehicle has been fitted with stabilizers, he is within his rights to fail it on the grounds that it is clearly unstable,hence the fitting of said stabilizers, thus constituting "bad design". as for taking off the body, stabilizers etc before test, its true they cant fail something that isnt there, however, if a vehicle is presented for test and appears to be unfinished or incomplete, a refusal of test will be issued. having got a p50 through a test succesfully and registered with dvla,all legal and above board, i feel confident we could get most things through, unfortunately,the time and costs involved in doing so would probably make it not viable. however, if you have money to spare, we would consider taking on such a task. good luck.
The main thing is that these vehicles are clearly not new.
Luckily the chassis plates normally have a date on them. Not necessarily the date the vehicle was made but probably (in French) the date the model was first introduced / passed, I may be wrong.
I think that the Minicat was only produced for two years so that narrows it down a bit.
For others, Mike Shepherd may be able to help with literature and provide a dating certificate.
From the RUMcars it may be possible to identify cars that are UK registered and perhaps the owners (not always using the forum) could be contacted with a view to having examples of various models already UK registered.
I will start my quest in the New Year.
With a date, it must make it easier. If there are known UK registered Sans Permis this would set a good precedent.
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it makes no odds that a vehicle has been registered, mr bloggs registered his comtesse in 1990, the laws,rules,regs were different back then, as previously stated in a past post, one could build,buy,import anything and just fill in the relevant forms and recieve a number, and log book. any vehicle with no paperwork HAS to go for an IVA prior to dvla registering it. a dating cert will help. but just because one maybe in the system dosnt mean it will be any easyer. each and every vehicle is tested as an individual and on its own merits. i am having difficulties registering a 1957 chevrolet that was modified in the usa back in the late 60s, there are countless other 57 chevys registered but it means diddly squat, its that particular car, on that particular day, with that particular test operative. as a footnote and to confuse things further, DVLA and VOSA have conflicting rules and DONT communicate. welcome to modern britain folks.
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That all sound pretty promising then!
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"any vehicle with no paperwork HAS to go for an IVA prior to dvla registering it"
I have recently registered two old cars and three motorcycles all without documentation and have recieved age related numbers for all and none of them had to be tested, they all with the exception of a moped were looked at [engine and frame numbers noted] by the local DVLA office. The moped was inspected by the moped club and that was enough to get it registered so my experiences dont match up to what Mrs Bamby is saying, I may be missing something here so will stand corrected.
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can i have your local dvla details, seems like the place to be for an easy ride.
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:D :D Come down to the Chelmsford office!
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I Have a Mini Comtess with V5c all duly registered et al but currently on SORN. It doesn't have a Q plate (KAUxxxx).
On front of V5 states " 1. was registered and/or used. Declared manufactured 1975."
On second page states
Date of first registration 08 04 1975.
Date of first registration in the UK 09 02 2005.
Make... Acoma.
Body Type.... Tricycle.
Taxation Class.... Tricycle.
Revenue weight.... 135.0 Kg Unladen.
Cylinder capacity.... 47cc, Petrol.
Wheelplan.... 3-wheel.
Type approval number.... 98/69/EC
etc etc etc. No further info on it after colour.
This was Stutart's old MC. :) Ian.
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Can you send a scan of the V5 Ian?
My email address is available on my info page.
Have you had it MOT'd? Any problems?
How much is the Tax?
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I think Ian is in the US so would not be mot'ing it but Stuart MOT'ed it whilst in his ownership.
At least this shows that someone imported it and registered it in 2005.
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it makes no odds that a vehicle has been registered, mr bloggs registered his comtesse in 1990, the laws,rules,regs were different back then, as previously stated in a past post, one could build,buy,import anything and just fill in the relevant forms and recieve a number, and log book. any vehicle with no paperwork HAS to go for an IVA prior to dvla registering it. a dating cert will help. but just because one maybe in the system dosnt mean it will be any easyer. each and every vehicle is tested as an individual and on its own merits. i am having difficulties registering a 1957 chevrolet that was modified in the usa back in the late 60s, there are countless other 57 chevys registered but it means diddly squat, its that particular car, on that particular day, with that particular test operative. as a footnote and to confuse things further, DVLA and VOSA have conflicting rules and DONT communicate. welcome to modern britain folks.
This is the pertinent thing above.
That I have registered vehicles similar to ones now wanting registration helps very little. DVLA has records of certain vehicles it recognises. If you have a Ford Focus they know what that is. They do not know what a Mini Comtesse is even though about 4 are now registered I believe. No manufacturer has furnished them with type approval information, crash test info or other guff. They will more than likely opt for IVA
Europe has forced European vehicles to be recognised but the British system reserves the right to select how to register it within our system of rules. So the analogy is you are mixing diesel with veggie oil to create fuel. Much disperses into the system mixing to variation of compounds and all burns well enough but a certain quantity does not mix at all and sinks to the bottom of the tank where it is very much more hard to pick it up and to burn it creates chip shop smells. After a period of time this un mixed element is really best discarded (export) as it just does not aid what is in the tank and sits inert holding crud (money) likely to choke the flow (unusable).
Elsewhere come to a re reg of an NSU Quickly and a Minerali Swifty and it is referred to a designated club expert. It saves DVLA time. The NSU is unlikely to get pulled now as the number of inspections has reduced. DVLA has nigh on killed off private number plate trading so there is no money in it. Also it has records of NSU so knows what it should be. There is confidence in a good outcome. However they might pull the Swifty as they will have no record of what that is. On inspection they could then take a dislike to it for a design reason even if it has an old registration - it would depend on the evidence presented - and off you go through the system as per Bamby P50, IVA.
Chelmsford Office is an LVO not DVLA nor VOSA. Do not mix these organisations, they do not mix themselves!
With respect to Lawil I have the benefit of mine being a Crayford and therefore a recognised separate British made vehicle to a Lawil though the cars have common roots. Likewise the Comtesse has an old enough registration to be stable. I cannot scan a document I do not have in my hand sadly. The class tax is irrelevant as it would have been correct at the time of issue but in all probability the laws have changed between then and now.
Either case is related to date of registration process. The law is continually evolving and what hoops my Mini Comtesse had to jump through some 15 years ago will be different and less than what is needed now. The only help prior registrations offer is to convince DVLA that a Mini Comtesse is a production manufactured machine and they can push a few buttons and bring up the relevant records on their computer screen. Now that could create a problem for those recently registered if some are Q, some not and several are mopeds and others Quads. Guess where you are going to get a registration, yep off down the Bamby P50 route of IVA and you might suck several already registered cars in with you to sort out an 'inconsistency'.
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Surly it can't do any harm to have some evidence of the other cars.
I have talked to the people at VOSA whilst they inspected the confusing numbers on my NSU. All resolved now.
They are human and really like their job to be easy. The more you give them, the happier they are to assist.
Some people seem to pre-empt disaster and trouble, others seem to like it to be as hard a task as possible.
I have been after details of your Lawil for ages and ages. I just need a copy of the relevant page of the V5. It seems that only thumb screws and pulled out finger nails will help in this endeavour!
I am pretty sure Crayford did not actually make the few 'British' Lawils. Surly they were imported and badged? In any case evidence tying the Crayford Lawil to an Italian Lawil would smooth the path to registration.
Why do you come up with all the reasons why a copy of the V5 will be of no use? Maybe it won't but we will never know it seems.
If you simply will not let me have a copy just say so. Don't blame it on the scanner or something else.
Now we have the same issue with Mini Comtesse. You have the paperwork for a UK Registered car but have decided it will not be of any use. Maybe it won't but we will never know it seems.
Surly it can't do any harm to supply a scan, or if you don't have scanning facility just send the original. I will pay all costs. (Can we trust Royal Mail.......)
Come on Al , Give us a bit of help on this one.
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Hello Barry: I have just sent you an e-mail. V5 is in my office, not with me right now. Old eagle-eyed Bob was right when he said I was in America and wouldn't Mot it or insure it in UK, so I do not know those details. Stuart would know and so why don't you e-mail him? Good luck in obtaining the correct paperwork. One other MC I have I never had a V5, only the "Carte Gris" (spelling) from France and that was sufficient to Title and register it Illinois, a few years back. No roadworthy, Mot, or any inspections in my part of Illinois but that would not be relevent to your situation anyway. Ian.
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All received Ian.
You are a true gentleman and this information will be a great help if I manage to get my Mini Comtesse back from Paris.
It will also help with the Super Comtesse.
Many thanks for your help and fast response
Barry
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Don't know if this might help, but I see the Crayford William in the Dezer Collection (SJY 706L) still comes up in the DVLA database.
http://www.dezercollection.com/1971-crayford-william-lawil-jeep-%5Bpav.%5D-c-285.htm (http://www.dezercollection.com/1971-crayford-william-lawil-jeep-%5Bpav.%5D-c-285.htm)
The vehicle details for SJY 706L are:
Date of Liability 01 07 1996
Date of First Registration 01 07 1993
Year of Manufacture 1972
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 246cc
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type PETROL
Export Marker N
Vehicle Status Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour YELLOW
Vehicle Type Approval Not Available
Vehicle Excise Duty rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate £71.50
12 Months Rate £130.00
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That is all good information.
Many thanks
Barry
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Hello Barry, I've emailed my friend who owns a Ligier in the UK. I've asked him if he's registered it and if so, can I pass his email address onto you. I'm waiting for him to reply. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back. There's a chance he may be away for Christmas & the New Year though. regards, Nick.
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hi friends , about registration documents in france, since 2011 ALL must be with title and licence plates . this operation is still free for mopeds, tricycles and "QCM" ( quadri cycles with engines(moteurs) .
so before buying this minicomtesse , ask the seller to do the title
he must give the "factory decription title, two pictures , document of selling by ex- owner ; and document for his licence plates demand . then with new licence plates on its micro; he will be able to do a selling document for you , giving you the title documents : and you will be ready to go to custom services .....
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Come on Al , Give us a bit of help on this one.
If I had either document here, on file, I would be more than happy to share information. However as previously said the papers are in limbo at buds mothers house and subject to some sort of family blackmail situation I am not party too. Clearly I would be delighted if this situation was resolved without my recourse to spending £50 on duplicate V5C. Until I do or the situation is otherwise resolved I cannot access the information. The Comtesse is not stored down here either so I cannot look at that in the flesh, as it were.
The papers I need to scan are for the Flipper, wasn't it.
I keep meaning to photograph the chassis plate on the Crayford. You are correct that they are plated up as Lawil but the difference is Crayford bought a licence to market the car, convert it such that it was consistent with the then legal requirements in Great Britain and did all the work to clear registrations through DVLA for the Lawil Crayford derivatives they sold. Technically to take advantage of that avenue I suspect that DVLA would expect it to be a Crayford therefore. A Crayford is not a Lawil in the same way a Mivillino is not a Messerschmitt even though it looks like one. I do not know if they have tied Lawil and Willam together either. They should not have done but who knows how much information they have and how accurate the information they keep needs to be. I have plenty of V5C carrying errors, two Heinkel rear diggers for instance, and to be honest do not trust DVLA records which are far more concerned with revenue collection than vehicle information.
I avoid having hassle with DVLA and LVO by sorting out my paperwork and stuff before making a presentation. This is what you are attempting to do, of course. I have never referenced other peoples cars, though, as I would hate for that to then create a problem since there are many ways to obtain a registration document.... If the original information is present then the process has been very simple but then I have never done a post '73 car. The Comtesse came registered already. You have to go back to Goggo PMR to find a imported post '73 car registered by me. THat was because the car was not declared at Dover by the German seller and I had to do it through Oxford Customs and Excise and they did not know the rules!
Hopefully the documents I await might become available as this discussion is read and the blocked situation resolved.
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I Have a Mini Comtess with V5c all duly registered et al but currently on SORN. It doesn't have a Q plate (KAUxxxx).
On front of V5 states " 1. was registered and/or used. Declared manufactured 1975."
On second page states
Date of first registration 08 04 1975.
Date of first registration in the UK 09 02 2005.
Make... Acoma.
Body Type.... Tricycle.
Taxation Class.... Tricycle.
Revenue weight.... 135.0 Kg Unladen.
Cylinder capacity.... 47cc, Petrol.
Wheelplan.... 3-wheel.
Type approval number.... 98/69/EC
etc etc etc. No further info on it after colour.
This was Stutart's old MC. :) Ian.
That there is indeed my old Mini Comtesse which went to Ian last year. Note it states "Date of first registration 8/4/75" & "Date of first registration in UK 9/2/05". All MINI Comtesse's have the date of the French equivalent of their original type approval stamped on the chassis plate, which is that 8/4/75 date in this case. It is a recognised date upon the recognised chassis plate therefore certainly back when mine was registered here in 2005, that stamped date was evidence enough of its year of manufacturer, therefore ANY Mini Comtesse presented at that time would have been declared by the DVLA as being April 1975 despite the Mini Comtesse actually having been in production from 1972 to 1979-80ish. I don't know if ALL Funny French Fhings have the "Type Approval" date stamped on all their chassis plates, but that's the way it worked back in 2005 for my Mini Comtesse.
I didn't register mine. I bought it fully taxed. mot'ed & registered from Tony Yorston of Lesctershire in September 2006. I don't have his contact details to hand, but Jean may well. I never renewed the MoT on it due to every tester in Oxfordshire at the time refusing point-blank to test it due to its size "not fitting their equipment". This being before I studied the MOT testers rulebook which says smallness of size isn't an excuse not to test, they just have to do it the hard way rolling around on the floor. By the time I found that out I'd lost intrest & gone onto other things.
Of the Crayford cars which have been flagged up occasionaly in this topic, basically forget all about them for the duration of this particular subject, ie, registering a Pans Permis car in 2012. The Crayfords were a batch of William/Lawil's brought in by Crayford the convertable car maker in the late 1960s and were all registered as brand-new cars at that time under the Crayford name. They were not registered as Williams or Lawil's, but as an already-recognised OTHER type of vehicle. (Crayford). Plus in the 1960s it was just fill out the details in the ledger & theres your number to slap on it. Therefore the Crayfords will serve absolute NO use at all to getting a recent-import non-UK registered Comtesse/William/Lawil/Mini Cat/Splatwagon etc etc a registration in 2012. In fact anyone with a Willam or Lawil would be far better off in my opinion in flogging it & putting the money towards getting hold of a Crayford!
On a more general note, I had to smile when Alan showed me this thread this morning. I remember when I got my Mini Comtesse. Half of you on here sat there & laughed at me. Now you all want a French Thing..... ;)
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And the same half are STILL laughing!
Is buying a Crayford a very practical suggestion though as only a tiny amount were made? Dont get me wrong, I would be in the que!
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No, we don't all want a sans permit, believe me. Maybe the one with the Yam R6 motor for blasting up the mountains would be ok in my garage though, but no more, can't stand them. Nick.
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And the same half are STILL laughing!
Is buying a Crayford a very practical suggestion though as only a tiny amount were made? Dont get me wrong, I would be in the que!
Yep, we are!
I'm like my dad, but not that bad ;)
I hate them all apart from the MC that I would only get if very cheap! (very)
You cant really use those cars for long trips (unless your a ginger!), so I'm out!
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I Have a Mini Comtess with V5c all duly registered et al but currently on SORN. It doesn't have a Q plate (KAUxxxx).
On front of V5 states " 1. was registered and/or used. Declared manufactured 1975."
On second page states
Date of first registration 08 04 1975.
Date of first registration in the UK 09 02 2005.
Make... Acoma.
Body Type.... Tricycle.
Taxation Class.... Tricycle.
Revenue weight.... 135.0 Kg Unladen.
Cylinder capacity.... 47cc, Petrol.
Wheelplan.... 3-wheel.
Type approval number.... 98/69/EC
etc etc etc. No further info on it after colour.
This was Stutart's old MC. :) Ian.
That there is indeed my old Mini Comtesse which went to Ian last year. Note it states "Date of first registration 8/4/75" & "Date of first registration in UK 9/2/05". All MINI Comtesse's have the date of the French equivalent of their original type approval stamped on the chassis plate, which is that 8/4/75 date in this case. It is a recognised date upon the recognised chassis plate therefore certainly back when mine was registered here in 2005, that stamped date was evidence enough of its year of manufacturer, therefore ANY Mini Comtesse presented at that time would have been declared by the DVLA as being April 1975 despite the Mini Comtesse actually having been in production from 1972 to 1979-80ish. I don't know if ALL Funny French Fhings have the "Type Approval" date stamped on all their chassis plates, but that's the way it worked back in 2005 for my Mini Comtesse.
I didn't register mine. I bought it fully taxed. mot'ed & registered from Tony Yorston of Lesctershire in September 2006. I don't have his contact details to hand, but Jean may well. I never renewed the MoT on it due to every tester in Oxfordshire at the time refusing point-blank to test it due to its size "not fitting their equipment". This being before I studied the MOT testers rulebook which says smallness of size isn't an excuse not to test, they just have to do it the hard way rolling around on the floor. By the time I found that out I'd lost intrest & gone onto other things.
Of the Crayford cars which have been flagged up occasionaly in this topic, basically forget all about them for the duration of this particular subject, ie, registering a Pans Permis car in 2012. The Crayfords were a batch of William/Lawil's brought in by Crayford the convertable car maker in the late 1960s and were all registered as brand-new cars at that time under the Crayford name. They were not registered as Williams or Lawil's, but as an already-recognised OTHER type of vehicle. (Crayford). Plus in the 1960s it was just fill out the details in the ledger & theres your number to slap on it. Therefore the Crayfords will serve absolute NO use at all to getting a recent-import non-UK registered Comtesse/William/Lawil/Mini Cat/Splatwagon etc etc a registration in 2012. In fact anyone with a Willam or Lawil would be far better off in my opinion in flogging it & putting the money towards getting hold of a Crayford!
On a more general note, I had to smile when Alan showed me this thread this morning. I remember when I got my Mini Comtesse. Half of you on here sat there & laughed at me. Now you all want a French Thing..... ;)
Stuart.
All good information, thanks.
It would be interesting to see the chassis plate on a Crayford (Willam /Lawil) I wonder if it is a 'Lawil' branded plate. It would be good to see a picture of Al's Chassis plate.
I have several Sans Permis and I laugh every time I see them. My boys also have a laugh driving them round the garden as they cost less than a small quad bike and unlike the Isetta, it doesn't matter too much if they hit a tree!
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hi friends , about registration documents in france, since 2011 ALL must be with title and licence plates . this operation is still free for mopeds, tricycles and "QCM" ( quadri cycles with engines(moteurs) .
so before buying this minicomtesse , ask the seller to do the title
he must give the "factory decription title, two pictures , document of selling by ex- owner ; and document for his licence plates demand . then with new licence plates on its micro; he will be able to do a selling document for you , giving you the title documents : and you will be ready to go to custom services .....
Thank you for this local information.
I will ask my French seller about this.
Regards
Barry
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Forgot my login :-[
But back now, thanks admin, and I will get onto the registering my Willam soon.
I have been skip reading this thread and forgive me if I misread something but:
I remember when I got my Mini Comtesse. Half of you on here sat there & laughed at me. Now you all want a French Thing.....
its not the mot man you need to worry about, they generally dont know there a**e from there elbow
Bloody rude >:(
And the same half are STILL laughing!
Rude :-\
Yep, we are!
I'm like my dad, but not that bad
Doubly rude ::)
No, we don't all want a sans permit, believe me. but no more, can't stand them. Nick.
Bloody rude >:(
At the moment my MOT station can do everything till you need plating. I am not sure what happens when Mike retires as he has all the odd licences. He is 70 now.
I am his younger version, I test class 1,2,3,4,7 and shortly 5 as well.
It helps I appreciate all classics, and read the guidlines where required and allow on the merits of the vehicle, all within the VOSA guidelines.
The rest I have read in this thread is that french micro cars are laughed at and deemed not a proper microcar ???
Microcar snobbery from what I see,
Shaun.
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I suggest you read again before you chuck your dummy out the pram. No one is saying French microcars are laughed at. They made some fine cars. I gave my opinions on sans permit cars. You may be surprised to know that not all French micro cars are sans permit. The rest of us are already aware of this fact. So don't be so bloody rude to us.
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I must admit I wasn't too impressed by the comment on MOT men, for most micro naughts the mot man is your best friend! My one has done me no end of favours. I shouldn't worry though Shaun, most of whats said on the forum is said tongue in cheek and even when it isn't, in a way that's what forums are for, expressing ones views, likes, dislikes etc. For example I love my Inter [French microcar] but I wouldnt want to own a Flipper, good luck to those who do. We don't all have to agree with each other. The best thing about this forum is that when you need help usually people are willing to give it.
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I suggest you read again before you chuck your dummy out the pram. No one is saying French microcars are laughed at. They made some fine cars. I gave my opinions on sans permit cars. You may be surprised to know that not all French micro cars are sans permit. The rest of us are already aware of this fact. So don't be so bloody rude to us.
Ok, I have re-read, and as this whole thread is about 'Sans permit' cars,
And I own a 'sans permit', and the opinions you have given on sans permit is clear.
The mistake I made in posting was that I referred to ALL French micro cars.
Where as you like some, just NOT the Sans permit.
Therefore I still think you are rude about my type of microcar.
And NO dummies have been spat from my side,
But I still think you come across as a microcarsnob.
HTH.
Shaun.
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I must admit I wasn't too impressed by the comment on MOT men, for most micro naughts the mot man is your best friend! My one has done me no end of favours. I shouldn't worry though Shaun, most of whats said on the forum is said tongue in cheek and even when it isn't, in a way that's what forums are for, expressing ones views, likes, dislikes etc. For example I love my Inter [French microcar] but I wouldnt want to own a Flipper, good luck to those who do. We don't all have to agree with each other. The best thing about this forum is that when you need help usually people are willing to give it.
Thank you for mentioning that not all testers are against the 'classic car movement'.
You just have to find the right tester, who will go the extra little bit to read and re-read the regs and apply as needed.
I know forums are mostly tongue in cheek, but some have sharper tongues than is needed.
As this thread was about helping to get someones 'sans permit' registered, the negative views were most likely toseem like the 'club' didn't want to help.
Shaun.
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The rest I have read in this thread is that french micro cars are laughed at and deemed not a proper microcar ???
Oh, I certainly hope not. This bunch (myself included) tends towards irreverence on nearly any subject, but I've got a couple of French microcars myself (a 1978 and a 1980 KV Mini 1) which I cherish beyond words. Much about their design and execution lends itself to humor, which I've always taken in the spirit of laughing with as opposed to laughing at. If anyone truly doesn't like such vehicles, they are welcome to their opinion. If anyone thinks such vehicles somehow aren't "proper" microcars, that's their problem, not mine.
I don't have much by way of British licensing advice, however, as I'm in the US.
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I suggest you read again before you chuck your dummy out the pram. No one is saying French microcars are laughed at. They made some fine cars. I gave my opinions on sans permit cars. You may be surprised to know that not all French micro cars are sans permit. The rest of us are already aware of this fact. So don't be so bloody rude to us.
Ok, I have re-read, and as this whole thread is about 'Sans permit' cars,
And I own a 'sans permit', and the opinions you have given on sans permit is clear.
The mistake I made in posting was that I referred to ALL French micro cars.
Where as you like some, just NOT the Sans permit.
Therefore I still think you are rude about my type of microcar.
And NO dummies have been spat from my side,
But I still think you come across as a microcarsnob.
HTH.
Shaun.
My dad a microcarsnob?
I dont think those words go together... Microcar and snob? Opposite things :D
My dad and snob? Not that I know of ???
There is nothing snobish with owning microcars, especially if you have been into them for over 30 years like my dad, when they were worthless!
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Thank you for mentioning that not all testers are against the 'classic car movement'.
You just have to find the right tester, who will go the extra little bit to read and re-read the regs and apply as needed.
Shaun.
This is the situation round here. Some testers are like the Gestapo on Classics as they do not understand that the test is not just about functionality but it is also about efficiency against design. Clearly a cable brake car is not going to perform like a thing with ABS etc. You can get fails for play in the bearings etc where, in fact, no play means the thing cannot work. Bob is right, a good MOT man is really handy as he has a neutral view and can pick up problems missed or impending and help you create a better car. I admit bias to older testers as they have more experience, which cannot be bought. However a good MOT guy is qualified and more often than not gets his fingers dirty when not doing MOTs. Respect is due. Mike is the fount of knowledge at my station/garage and the place would struggle without him. Your talking of a guy who can make white metal bearings etc. There is little he does not know. He is perhaps the top of his trade. Yet another 10 miles are the Taylor Brothers who are as good. Alec has microcars. I am very lucky.
Do these guys know the minutiae of DVLA classification. I doubt it. They test what is put in front of them to the standard the information and classification requires. I think this is what Bob meant. They are not going to always pick up your classification is incorrect. How would they know? My Minibus is not a Minibus as I chose to deregulate it into a PLG van. Looks like a Minibus though. The issue is if I use it as a Minibus I break the law. Mike did tell me I have to remove the drivers Tacho to comply when I tested it. I have no idea if he is correct but you do it out of respect.
I still wonder why Stuart could not get his Mini Comtesse MOTed. Mike would have done it but you have to book in with the garage management. If they were unable to identify what test it needed then they will refuse, unless your a regular customer, as time is money. The Taylors, on a similar level, do not suffer 'fools' gladly. That does not mean you are a fool it just means they need to think you are. They are invariably rude about any older car they test to, which upsets some folk. It is their manner and on knowing them better you understand it is because the know most vehicles weak points etc etc. Thus they are firstly unpopular as you cannot con them over missing controls etc - Schmitt rear brake for instance and secondly those with a choice sometimes prefer to go elsewhere to avoid 'abuse'. In fact the answer is to debate with them by suggesting they have equally crap cars and they will very often agree! Then you get down to it and learn something you did not know.
Were we laughing at sans permis cars? Well possibly sneaking a ribbing but they are more of a Microcar than a lot of things that come up. My personal take on them is I would not drive one on our roads (assuming it could take the strain!) as I fear modern British drivers would mean it was only a question of time before there was an incident I would care to avoid. That class of vehicle has no choice to increase performance without stepping outside its class so it is very much a case of personal choice as to if you wish to own and if you then wish to attempt to drive one. I would not wish the rules to prevent this though.
Snobbery, yes there is in microcars, but much of it is based on the fact that those who have had a few cars realise that there are certain types which are still completely usable today, a lot which, with sense, are fine within their limits of specification and then another lot that are perhaps better suited to rallies, runs and localised adventures. Of course the final lot are a challenge to even find complete let alone drive. Price now does not map this divide as slavishly as perhaps it used to but is another sort of snobbery. The French Fridges sit low on usability and value so are a natural target. That said if you have not the budget for the expensive stuff plus not the need to compete with the M4, like Mike Grossman, you do not need the usability. Perfect thing to play with then. I would like to see a herd of them at an event taking a suitable run out, perhaps, and creating a stir. None the less I will be watching from the sidelines or attempting to aid.
As a collectors item they work well. There are a myriad to find and some are bonkers. Again not for me but a very supportable thing to do at the moment.