RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on February 05, 2012, 05:30:04 PM
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i have asked before , what do we think of these devices for cars such as a Gordon . if no please why not . they look pretty good spec to me
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIKE-TRANSPORTER-TRAILER-DOLLY-TOURING-RECOVERY-/110784270179?pt=UK_CartsParts_Vehicles_ATVQuad_Trike_Parts_Accessories_SM&hash=item19cb41cf63
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or even this ! storage is the thing and the front of a Gordon weighs very little
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/motorcycle-trike-trailer-/170774906240?pt=UK_CartsParts_Vehicles_ATVQuad_Trike_Parts_Accessories_SM&hash=item27c2fa4580
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Yeah, they look great!
If you dont want to pay that much for it, hack of the rear end of a 4 wheeler Isetta!
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I may be wrong but I thought only garages could use a dolly to retrieve broken down cars etc,
How does it fit in with the current confusion / lack of clear legislation on the use of A frames.
Either way don't use one in Spain where it is illegal to tow one vehicle with another unless it is mounted on a trailer.
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Yes, I remember hearing something about them only being for recovery professionals. May be wrong. My pal Steve used one for some time to tow his Reliant Ant, it behaved well untill you try to reverse!
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the first one looks a proper piece of kit - but for it's money would the second one do the job - how would it fail me - thanks
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It's not a straightforward issue, but this looks to be a fairly authoritative source - for the UK at least.
http://www.ttas.co.uk/towsafe.cartransport.html (http://www.ttas.co.uk/towsafe.cartransport.html)
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So when I towed my Morris Isis with a Morris minor using an 'A' frame, it wasn't strictly legal? The Morris minor brakes did seem to struggle a bit!
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It's not a straightforward issue, but this looks to be a fairly authoritative source - for the UK at least.
http://www.ttas.co.uk/towsafe.cartransport.html (http://www.ttas.co.uk/towsafe.cartransport.html)
That is what I understand to be the law too. It changed toward the end of the 90's I think. Before then towing dollys were fine and I used one all over Europe, though the rules varied. I had to talk myself out of a few situations but clearly the situation was confused.
There are hidden risks in using dollys too. The law states the assembly is considered a trailer. So despite your expensive classic insurance guess what your insurer will say if you have an accident with your expensive classic car on a dolly. This would remain the case if your home made dolly failed and parted from the tow car, it is still a trailer. SOME NORMAL GENERAL INSURANCE POLICIES COVER TOWING, MOST DO NOT COVER TRAILERS 'UNATTACHED FROM THE TOW VEHICLE'. It pays to check but a failure of an articulated trailer is a guaranteed accident to the car towed and it could be neither insurance on either car will pick up the bill. A piccy copper could seize your 'trailer' as it is not insured or safe.
Some cars are not suitable for towing anyway. See where the drive train is turning the engine, travelling in reverse and not sending oil round the drive train which is design for Oil dispersion forwards. You still wear out your consumables like tyres, bushings etc. Neither is the tow car design for speeds in excess of the original performance window. Variomatics are simply not to be towed save in an emergency due to the drive management system and risk of perminant and expensive damage.
For all these reasons I dispensed with the Dolly in favour for a van or trailer. It is simpler and safer. The only real advantage of a dolly was always its ease of storage, light return tow weight saving fuel and convenience of use when moving other peoples machines or cars not being as I was not paying the maintenance costs. I retain an A frame for Isetta, Trienkel and 'Schmitt as they can be very handy for delivery/collection including ferries and tunnels where saving on fees can be obtained.
For the above reasons I now 'over trail' by using a light weight ex racing car four wheeled trailer even on small trikes. If I moving a £15k Messerschmitt I do not want a puncture pulling the trailer into an accident. Been there, done that. The unused area round the car on the deck gives space for intrusion of other things not to reach the car also. So I can mow down cyclists without risking damage to my well placed Schmitt, for instance. Important when you live near Oxford! Yet the light weight keeps fuel use down but for the drag of the extra axle. The down side is it needs a 15ft by 6ft parking space. If I were stuck for space I would fit it with several curved rails and mount a winch on the wall so I could pull it onto its side for when it was out of use. My box trailer lives on it tail against the wall for this reason having been made for this option. Indeed it is also a great anti theft device and could be padlocked in place.
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thanks for the input so it seems all i need is a garage with 16' height and enough empty floor space to manoevre the trailer in to get it upright . impossible . a move to scale models or stationary engines seems the only solution then :-\
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RIGHT
have i got this correct ? - thanks rusty chrome for the link.
any towed vehicle is a trailer
if under 750 kg ( 1650 lb ) or over 1/2 the weight of the towing vehicle the "trailer" requires independent braking on all its wheels
therefore :
weight of a Gordon 6 imp. cwt 44 lbs = 716 lb - the Gordon weighs less than half the allowable weight of 1650 lb ! no problems then ?
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Slight typo - needs to be under 750kg and not over half the towing weight of the towing vehicle as well to comply without all wheel braking.... I am sure that's what you meant.
Yes, it falls into the same area as A framing really. One benefit of playing with small cars as this loophole is not an option for most cars and ideal if you have little space or a security issue at home as the frame/dolly will probably hang up somewhere out of sight. If you are clever you can wire the car to save having a trailer board as well. Just attach to towing device, plug in and go. I can see why its so attractive but its not without its problems. It is a balance of expediency over an ideal solution.
I believe some cars you see towed behind large campers are fitted with a brake lever to knock the cars brakes on. I am also pretty sure a lot of these towed cars are illegal under the strict letter of the law, as are some of the campers themselves if loaded up for the holidays to be overweight and out of drivers licence groupings, one advantage old old fogey rights as I have the ability to drive the big'uns without further testing like many on this forum if you have not lost it by ignoring your photo card licence categories.......
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as you say al i made a mistake under 750kg seems fine and the Gordon is way under that - i suspect most old school micro's are
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Your car when towed is a trailer
The law says if a trailer has brakes then they must be operated by towing vehicle regardless of weight;
So if tour car weighs 500kg but has brakes they must all operate when towing,
They must also disengage automatically when reversing.
A frames are neither legal or illegal in the UK it has yet to be sorted however they must comply with the above.
France is looking at it but in Spain it is definitely to use them the only way in Spain in on a trailer.
The bit that says if its legal in your EEC country the it has to be "tolerated" in others is cobbles, Spain proving the point.
Will some one tell Mike Shepherd I wrote something on this forum that doesnt include the word Frisky, Dam-it I just did it again
John
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sorry john clear as mud . your first line says " your car when towed is a trailer" then later you bring in 500kg ! why ? what relevance has 500kg ?
( the Gordon weighs much less than 500kg )
sorry also " if tour car ...." is that the towing car, the towed car unclear
thanks john
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Sorry for confusion and poor typing!!
The law says when you tow a car, the towed car is deemed to be "a trailer"
The law says if a trailer is fitted with brakes (irrespective of its weight) they must operate
I just choose 500kg as an example to say, if the trailer(towed car) weighs only 500kg and is fitted with brakes they must operate.
750kg limit is the maximum a trailer can weigh and not have brakes fitted.
So in a nut shell if you tow a car its brakes must operate when its being towed and must also disengage when the outfit is being reversed
weight doesn't come in to it
Hope that helps, (I think I'll stick to Friskys in Future)
john
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thanks for the clarification john . it would appear that legally you can never tow a car without having linked brakes . unless in a recovery situation i guess . so the dolley is right out - shame i thought it would solve my problems . but how many simple trailers i see at rallies have acting brakes ??
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The legal position is 'if the trailer has brakes they have to work'. 'If the trailer is under 750 kg it does not need brakes'.
So what if you have a trailer with the brakes removed that is under 750kg. Just because a thing looks like it might have brakes does mean it has. See many small home made trailers based on car axles running with the drum in place as a spacer. So when is a decommissioned brake system not a brake system? I have used this loophole with the dolly often. After all if the car is a trailer it is not a car. Take out the brake shoes, no brakes fitted.
It is on this argument that we defeat the other fav 'A car with its wheels on the road has to be MOTed and Taxed'. A dolly with a car on is clearly not a car nor is the car behaving as a car. It is behaving as a trailer. Dead cars can be moved by dolly. A car on an A frame is behaving as a towed car would. It is a rigid tow, if you like. That is the difference between the two methods and why emergency vehicles favour spectacle lifts over rigid towing. The dead and unroadworthy, often brake-less, cars can be removed and transported round the country to garages, scrapyards etc. Even new cars can be seen to be moved in this way. So we are back to trade using the things OK.
I stopped using either frames or dollys in Europe sometime ago. I think Germany is on emergency vehicles only. France the same? Not sure about the low countries. Spain, apparently on no account. So the law is confused but clearly the drift is towards banning them save for emergency vehicles who need to be able to clear a mess efficiently. I expect this gets rolled up in operators licences and trade insurance cover not available to anyone else. INdeed we are fortunate to still be allowed to make home made trailers!
Being a microcar owner of the old school therefore we are going to do it, aren't we? Microcars, falling through the loopholes of the law. It is one reason to have them surely. Two fingers to the establishment and nanny state.
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Lots of people tow small cars behind campers on the continent inc Spain.
The brakes are coupled to the A frame in some way?
Some are very small cars but may go to the size of a Toyota Yaris for instance.
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http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26483&posts=22
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26399&posts=110
The above sites cover All the points you want to know, its the MMM site for motor homers who as you say tow cars'
I can assure towing one vehicle behind another in Spain is illegal, unless its on a trailer, i.e. all wheels of the ground
John
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My finger slipped as well, John.
Pretty much same consensus. Two issues. Grey area in law and you need to check out your insurance cover. What the second thread issue ignores is it is for you to tell the insurer what they are insuring. Clearly the Insurers offer standard policies which are fine in 99% of cases to save time. However never assume you are insured for anything without checking, especially if it is an unusual activity. Case in point how many of you have told your insurer that you car is, in fact, modified from standard with the fitment of a tow bar?