RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on February 19, 2012, 03:04:25 PM
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dropped a repro victoria spatz/ Bruetsch hinge on the floor the other day and it snapped . ashamed to say i bought these about 7 years ago and still not used them ! anyhow they are the only parts i have ever had from Germany that were substandard, poorly cast , with fracture lines behind and made of a poor quality Mazac type metal .
anyhow the question : does anyone know who could recast me 4 pairs of these hinges ? thanks as always
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this is how the 2 part hinge is made up
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Lost wax or sand castings?
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Having watched Fred Dibnah I caught a bit where they visited one of the last time trained pattern makers up in your neck of the woods associated to a small foundry, possible the heritage but still economically active one in the Iron Bridge complex. He has the skills to judge the shrinkage and create the patterns in wood for casting of all sorts of metals and alloys. Struck me at the time that it would be handy to know more about this set up. I imagine costs would be high but once a pattern is created it can be replicated so the better the pattern the less finishing on the casting. So many bits could be reproduced if the will to finance was present.
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No need to make a wooden pattern these days.
Draw it up in 3D CAD and have an exact replica made as an SLA (Laser solidified liquid - stereolithography) This can be your perfect Pattern.
I am in contact with a Lambretta man who draws (3D CAD - Solidworks) components and then has them cast - in England.
He is supplying me with one of the best cast Iron replacement barrels and cast aluminium head kits.
He also has cast aluminium manifolds.
If the numbers are right (still small volume) he can draw and manufacture parts. One-offs are unlikely to be economical.
Interested?
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This is true but the shrinkage rate is the key element of the casting as the copy can be the wrong size or have wrong stress in it if incorrectly calculated. Is that why the hinge in question broken the first place? Copying an existing item is very much more difficult than making a new or replacement item. The percentage accuracy needs to be established. Some folks are very picky about parts. However go to far and they are more picky about the cost. All tricky stuff.
Meanwhile in the other part of the brain.
I like the idea of a guy making a thing with his hands, having the knowledge it is going to be correct and doing it. If computers do all these jobs then that skill dies out. Great until for some reason computers are not able to do the job or even the basic notion of what the process of the programme is doing is not passed on to the computer operator. There are so many instances where the human element no longer understands the function of the computer programme so the answer is meaningless to all till the result is found to be totally inaccurate. Its called progress but as far as I can see much progress has resulted in parping up simple tasks that a brain can cope with quite well enough with a bit of training rather than producing a race of talentless drones. Still perhaps they will suffer natural selection during the oncoming recession we are not having (having been missed by computers, or was the operators of the computers?).
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dropped a repro victoria spatz/ Bruetsch hinge on the floor the other day and it snapped . ashamed to say i bought these about 7 years ago and still not used them ! anyhow they are the only parts i have ever had from Germany that were substandard, poorly cast , with fracture lines behind and made of a poor quality Mazac type metal .
anyhow the question : does anyone know who could recast me 4 pairs of these hinges ? thanks as always
I only heard about mazac last week, now I realise so many parts are made out of it!
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^ JP, Mazac /Zamac is an alloy which includes manganese aluminium and bronze, sometimes also known as monkey metal or pot metal, it casts well and accepts chrome reasonably well, so used extensively for castings but not all that tough.
I cannot help Dickie, but hope you get it sorted and let us know how you get on!
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^ JP, Mazac /Zamac is an alloy which includes manganese aluminium and bronze, sometimes also known as monkey metal or pot metal, it casts well and accepts chrome reasonably well, so used extensively for castings but not all that tough.
I cannot help Dickie, but hope you get it sorted and let us know how you get on!
You forgot to say how crappy it was! It oxidyses a lot, making it veryv pitted and horrible chrome!
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^ JP, Mazac /Zamac is an alloy which includes manganese aluminium and bronze, sometimes also known as monkey metal or pot metal, it casts well and accepts chrome reasonably well, so used extensively for castings but not all that tough.
I cannot help Dickie, but hope you get it sorted and let us know how you get on!
You forgot to say how crappy it was! It oxidyses a lot, making it veryv pitted and horrible chrome!
I agree!
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Dicke, the hinge doesn't look that complicated, If you fancied a challenge you could work one up from a block of ali. Time consuming but rewarding!
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Dicke, the hinge doesn't look that complicated, If you fancied a challenge you could work one up from a block of ali. Time consuming but rewarding!
But then you cant chrome it (unless it was ali originally?)
I'll have to try working with blocks of ali one day, that would be the best way to make a schmitt steering bar for my model etc!
I'm currently working on a 2cv model, since the glue gun packed up, cant work on the schmitt anymore, but 2cv only needs soldering!
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Aluminium can be chromed. Have you not seen the MOC albert mirrors? The chrome peels off them like a tangerine but chrome plated they are! in fact recently I saw a platers advert showing how he chrome plated an apple!
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This is true but the shrinkage rate is the key element of the casting as the copy can be the wrong size or have wrong stress in it if incorrectly calculated. Is that why the hinge in question broken the first place? Copying an existing item is very much more difficult than making a new or replacement item. The percentage accuracy needs to be established. Some folks are very picky about parts. However go to far and they are more picky about the cost. All tricky stuff.
Meanwhile in the other part of the brain.
I like the idea of a guy making a thing with his hands, having the knowledge it is going to be correct and doing it. If computers do all these jobs then that skill dies out. Great until for some reason computers are not able to do the job or even the basic notion of what the process of the programme is doing is not passed on to the computer operator. There are so many instances where the human element no longer understands the function of the computer programme so the answer is meaningless to all till the result is found to be totally inaccurate. Its called progress but as far as I can see much progress has resulted in parping up simple tasks that a brain can cope with quite well enough with a bit of training rather than producing a race of talentless drones. Still perhaps they will suffer natural selection during the oncoming recession we are not having (having been missed by computers, or was the operators of the computers?).
I am sorry but you really are living in the past Al. The reason there are not any Pattern makers about is because they are no longer necessary. Like so many trades, they are a thing of the past. Any modern foundry will make patterns using 3D CAD' it is absolutely accurate. You get exactly what you draw. I started life as a draughtsman using ink on tracing paper. Then came 2D CAD. Then 3D CAD. Then 3D solid modelling. Should I be drawing with pen and ink now because it is a skill? I am now deal with new product design, development test and introduction. I deal with plastic mouldings, making mould tools using 3D Solid modelling, rapid prototypes - mould tools cut direct from CAD where the parts are almost perfect from the first trial and all the parts are to size and fit together.
If the hinge were drawn up in CAD a perfect hinge could be machined from solid. Probably an almost economical way of producing a one-off (and easy to make another one or two exact copies as the CAD is always available).
Have an open mind to progress, it's not all bad.
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Aluminium can be chromed. Have you not seen the MOC albert mirrors? The chrome peels off them like a tangerine but chrome plated they are! in fact recently I saw a platers advert showing how he chrome plated an apple!
Yup Aluminium can be chromed, it is just a question of who does it and how many intermediate stages they do, as well as the exact mix of metals. Very little is manufactured with pure ali, and different ali alloys hold chrome differently. The Premier Drum company was just famous for the exceptional quality of its chroming process and some ali snare drums of theirs are still immaculate 40 years after being made, although careful owners and dry storage help; Rolls Royce always kept quiet about having their chrome done by a drum company!
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Aluminium can be chromed. Have you not seen the MOC albert mirrors? The chrome peels off them like a tangerine but chrome plated they are! in fact recently I saw a platers advert showing how he chrome plated an apple!
I only see original mirrors ;D
Of course chrome can be plated, I remember my dad telling me that I cant get my mower cylinder repaired (it has a sort of scratch in the cylinder causing it to burn oil), and my dad said it would be too expensive, since its ali, and it will need to be rechromed!
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"of course chrome can be plated"??
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I am sorry but you really are living in the past Al. The reason there are not any Pattern makers about is because they are no longer necessary. Like so many trades, they are a thing of the past.
If the hinge were drawn up in CAD a perfect hinge could be machined from solid. Probably an almost economical way of producing a one-off (and easy to make another one or two exact copies as the CAD is always available).
Have an open mind to progress, it's not all bad.
I fear you are probably totally correct. I am technophobic beyond a certain level. An Amish of computerised technology.
My only question is that there must be a way to factor in the amount extra for shrinkage of materials upon cooling a casting. I guess this is now in the form of a program of data available for $25 to add to the CAD programming. The depressing side of learning a trade's set of data only to see it reduced to a commodity. Made from solid of course removes the need for that element of the job as well.
One day I am sure we will have sockets fitted so a blue tooth sort of thing can be inserted and we can programme our additional memory to a suit of knowledge for the tasks of the day, rabbit on 'phones and not get lost even in Wal Mart. Will that be the start of people living longer or for ever as the organic and silica brains begin to merge outlasting bodies? Progress but a bit scary.
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Aluminium can be chromed. Have you not seen the MOC albert mirrors? The chrome peels off them like a tangerine but chrome plated they are! in fact recently I saw a platers advert showing how he chrome plated an apple!
While agreeing that those repro mirrors were a bit of a disappointment can I point out that Schmitt Albert mirrors were Aluminium - eer ignorance time, annealed? Certianly they have a shiny resistant surface. Once removed the ali corrodes quite fast.
There were several types of Albert mirror head used, all a similar shape with shared mirror lens but I believe none were chromed. The Volvo and Fiat - Opel? however had chromed mirrors and stems. It is for this reason that the Schmitt/Goggo mirror stem is hard to find in chrome, though it does exist and is lower grade alloy classed as Mazak. I think these were from things like Goggo 700 and possibly Lloyd.
The Roadster/Tiger Mirror and KR15 and early KR200 oblong mirrors were both chromed assemblies but oddly the Tiger unit has an Ali spacer and the 175 an ali base plate.
None of this matters unless you want a prize.
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I am sorry but you really are living in the past Al. The reason there are not any Pattern makers about is because they are no longer necessary. Like so many trades, they are a thing of the past.
If the hinge were drawn up in CAD a perfect hinge could be machined from solid. Probably an almost economical way of producing a one-off (and easy to make another one or two exact copies as the CAD is always available).
Have an open mind to progress, it's not all bad.
I fear you are probably totally correct. I am technophobic beyond a certain level. An Amish of computerised technology.
My only question is that there must be a way to factor in the amount extra for shrinkage of materials upon cooling a casting. I guess this is now in the form of a program of data available for $25 to add to the CAD programming. The depressing side of learning a trade's set of data only to see it reduced to a commodity. Made from solid of course removes the need for that element of the job as well.
One day I am sure we will have sockets fitted so a blue tooth sort of thing can be inserted and we can programme our additional memory to a suit of knowledge for the tasks of the day, rabbit on 'phones and not get lost even in Wal Mart. Will that be the start of people living longer or for ever as the organic and silica brains begin to merge outlasting bodies? Progress but a bit scary.
I think you are right in many ways Al. It really is a shame that so many skilled trades are being consumed. We are at a long transition stage where there is still the expertise gained from years of experience within the industry. This experience is still available to the newcomers with computer skills or the old timers that have made the transition. Before long all of the old timers will have expired along with their knowledge. Perhaps your plug-in memory device could be used to download the contents of a boiler makers brain just before they go towards the light. I think the contents of your brain may already be encrypted!
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Perhaps your plug-in memory device could be used to download the contents of a boiler makers brain just before they go towards the light. I think the contents of your brain may already be encrypted!
It would be great to store world knowledge thus. Indeed a Science Fiction favourite.
My Dad worked within Harwell labs and it might be I am a rejected first generation cyborgbotbrain or something. My bonce is encrypted so even I cannot get information out of it!
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Aluminium can be chromed. Have you not seen the MOC albert mirrors? The chrome peels off them like a tangerine but chrome plated they are! in fact recently I saw a platers advert showing how he chrome plated an apple!
While agreeing that those repro mirrors were a bit of a disappointment can I point out that Schmitt Albert mirrors were Aluminium - eer ignorance time, annealed? Certianly they have a shiny resistant surface. Once removed the ali corrodes quite fast.
There were several types of Albert mirror head used, all a similar shape with shared mirror lens but I believe none were chromed. The Volvo and Fiat - Opel? however had chromed mirrors and stems. It is for this reason that the Schmitt/Goggo mirror stem is hard to find in chrome, though it does exist and is lower grade alloy classed as Mazak. I think these were from things like Goggo 700 and possibly Lloyd.
The Roadster/Tiger Mirror and KR15 and early KR200 oblong mirrors were both chromed assemblies but oddly the Tiger unit has an Ali spacer and the 175 an ali base plate.
None of this matters unless you want a prize.
Never the less all good info for a purist restoration. I know the repro mirrors should not have been chromed. Thats why I wasnt too disappionted that they peeled. I striped it all off of my pair and polished the alloy. Maybe it was the Goggo club that specified the plating? Did you mean that the originals were anodised?
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I think that is it, anodised. One is to work the ali and than harden it with heat and the other is to prevent corrosion isn't it? Not sure If Uwe commissioned the mirrors but on the basis they had pretty accurate stems it suggests the smaller car enthusiasts were responsible or joined in an order. Why Chromed, it looks good and ultimately it is about sales in business. I believe these mirrors have gone unobtainable again.
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Annieling is a softening process by heating to make the metal pliable before bending etc. Anodising is a coating process.
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"of course chrome can be plated"??
I meant "of course ali can be plated"
;D
Annieling is very usefull for modelmaking, makes the plkanishing process a lot easier too.
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thanks for the input - just back from 4 days working in Glasgow and Edinburgh , will study the replies a bit now.