RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Jonathan Poll on August 14, 2012, 07:26:17 PM
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Maybe Bob was right, its all up for sale, check out his website: http://microcarmuseum.com/
It's a shame to see it go, I loved that museum...
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Quite a surprise despite recent rumours!
So once he has sold this collection is he going to start yet again? Does he just like the thrill of getting and restoring them, then loose interest once he has a good collection? Quite possibly!
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Like the Hemulen that had a complete stamp collection. What do you do with it? Owning it is a whole different activity and responsibility to collecting it. The Hemulen eventually took up botany after a lot of upset. If your a collector and a deal maker there is no doubt that a complete collection is boring in the end. Better to find something else to collect. Bruce collects all sorts of things already. Maybe those have got more interesting.
If he sells up then what effect does the access to many rare or good cars do to the market. Might be that it is coming up to buyers time shortly for those who thought they might be out priced for our fav local cars like Messerschmitts.
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So much for the trust the museum was put in that prevented him from selling it!
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It will be interesting to have the shoe on the other foot so to speak, when the pride of the US micro car scene gets scattered across the world.
Should I start crying for retribution in advance- or just let the other shoe drop?
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Interesting comparison with the Hemulen Al, a character from the Moomins...once he had collected every stamp he needed something else!
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weird that the only moving image to click on shows that DISGUSTING bad taste Isetta with enormous engine and wheels as big as an excavator - not really the desired image is it ? maybe that will reach the most ! there are a lot of people out there with bad taste !
now who the heck is going to buy my Bruetsch ? :'( :)
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weird that the only moving image to click on shows that DISGUSTING bad taste Isetta with enormous engine and wheels as big as an excavator - not really the desired image is it ? maybe that will reach the most ! there are a lot of people out there with bad taste !
now who the heck is going to buy my Bruetsch ? :'( :)
I'll take it off of your hands free of charge if you want ;)
I can understand it being funto collect, but not too fun to keep. I wouldn't be suprised if he starts collecting again. I hope he does.
It will also be interesting to check out the auction prices, and also to get some photos of both Nobels he has hidden away!
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It will be interesting to have the shoe on the other foot so to speak, when the pride of the US micro car scene gets scattered across the world.
Should I start crying for retribution in advance- or just let the other shoe drop?
Just view it as repatriation Steve.
Dont worry, I dare say most of them will stay in America.
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So much for the trust the museum was put in that prevented him from selling it!
As I had intermated before, the Trust thing I took with a pinch of salt. It is akin to the old trick of persuading a reluctant owner to part with his pride and joy 'as I always wanted one'. 'I will never sell it'. 'I will send you pictures of it during and/or finished'. The next thing is the same car is on sale after a rub with an oily rag and a bit of botching for a profit. We know folk who pull that one time and again. This really is just a more sophisticated version. I have met Bruce a few times. Great guy, but what came over is that he loves the thrill of the chase and the deal. He is very good at it. He probably likes it more than the end result. That he has achieved this fantastic collection goes to mitigate any negative feeling I might have about his reasons for doing it. Its a one off really as you need to be very wealthy to pull it off.
Looking forward, however, I do see a negative. Should a sell off go through peace meal then many cars, some very rare or unique, will be left torn away from their historical background. It will become quite easy for them to become meaningless, just an anachronism to be laughed at as a failure in the back of a small collection. Now that is sad. Not just for the car but also the place it came from, where their is some connection to the people, time and society that all went into finding the machine created. Isn't this why Richard has a Gordon. My own area still takes pride in what was produced from Cowley and Abingdon. The difference is there are lots of MInis and Cooper S racing cars left, enough to be scattered. Are there enough Gordons?
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Well I do know that bruce never had a Gordon , or a Bruetsch Pfeil come to that, as for chasing he never enquired so not sure about that one. He liked acquiring ! Definition of RUM - not in Weiner Museum :)
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You did not tart yourself in his direction like many though, did you Richard?
The joke is he refused to buy cars from me as I was a 'Dealer' most of that time. Yet he happily bought the cars I found from people who bought the cars from me and for much higher prices than they paid me. (never bothered me as I got the margin I wanted out of each deal, or I would not have done them). Never did understand that one unless it was that I played with a straight bat ignoring the fact he was very wealthy and treated him the same as everybody else. The message that came back, though, was I would not drop my prices so it was not a bargain. So, one and all, learn from that and ask a silly price, except half of it and still clear twice the profit the car warranted in the first place. Ah, you nearly all do, well done!
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"Yet he happily bought the cars I found from people who bought the cars from me and for much higher prices than they paid me."
Well I guess thats partially true Al, take the Inter for example, it came from you as a wreck with a huge hole cut out of the rear bulk head and no engine. After a five year restoration and thousands lavished on it he paid a higher price for it than I paid you!
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Ah, the Squinter was a bit different. That had major works and lost bits found for it. It bore little relation to the car I sold and while I could go on about how I should have kept it the fact is it would still be in that condition like many other things I did keep back. No it was the stuff that got no real work done to it between my selling and Bruce buying that I am on about. Crumbs, one even came back to me with instruction as to turn it from an Invalid Carriage to a Car. This I did using an Isetta pedal and some other parts as it was a paying job. Seems that Bruce refused to buy IC but offered a healthy profit on the car I sold, assuming it could be altered convincingly. I assume I was successful as it is still in the collection. Probably ought to go on the RUMcar fake list.
Fairs fair though. I will not get to buy any cars from the auction as I will not move my buying offer either!!!
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"The Squinter" I like it!!
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Indeed, many of them may go to wealthy collectors that previously have had little to do with Micro cars. I say this because I just got back from my 800 mile round trip, 3 day vacation to Monterrey California for the Concourso Italiano, Concours DeLemon, and a couple of auctions. While at the site of the RM auction- the Portola Hotel, I noticed a well prepared exhibit featuring an Isetta, GoGo Van, and a Messerschmitt. It was part of a well orchestrated campaign By Bruce Weiner to publicize his upcoming auction in Feb 1013. For dramatic effect it included a video of his big block supercharged V8 powered 3 wheeled Isetta creation doing an extended burnout on the narrow road outside his museum. I was there at its debut in 2009, so I recognized the scene. It was clearly designed to intrigue a new type of wealthy clientele that was previously unfamiliar with the world of Microcars to his auction. I even found myself clearing up a few major misconceptions to a few intrigued but dumbfounded onlookers that had heard the typical rumors about Messerschmitts being made from surplus airplane parts.
It all makes me wonder more than ever what is behind Bruce's apparent change of heart, and makes me much less optimistic about finding any good deals amongst a wealthy audience that is now more likely than ever to come in from great distances.
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Look what he did with the Christies Auction. That broke all records on prices then and was a much smaller auction. Indeed some of the prices still stand as highest achieved for type of Microcar. Quite a few folk have been telling me about how they will be going with the expectation of getting a bargain once the scramble is over for the plums and cherries. Not least after the Coys auction surprised us with the lower prices achieved. I think there might be some well priced machinery but do not under estimate the man's ability to whip up a market. Also because it is a Museum/best collection sale there will be people bidding just to own a slice of the action. Just the same as they have a bit of the Berlin Wall, Royal linked ephemera, Titanic ephemera, etc etc. These buyers will see some underwriting of the less desirable and easily portable items as evidence of being there and of some kind of claim to membership of a clan while its interesting.
So I am pretty confidant that this auction will see some pretty strong bidding and might well tear out the heart of what is left of a hobby as, inevitably, people chase the values. The question is what really happens to the values? With so many cars sating the market and Bruce not driving in deals it could actually stall the market after he has left with the cash. Good news for those who want to play but not for those who scent a profit. I note that several quite satisfactory Schmitts have not found buyers here at what were reasonable prices so the economics are already a little bleak after Coys for those expecting an ever increase value on there collections. Mind you like several other clubs the Schmitt world is now in difficulties putting off potential owners here. Certainly bubblecar ownership does not look as attractive as it did 10 years ago in the UK, unless you have a Trienkel perhaps. Maybe it is time for these cars to become collectors items with only the few used by those proficient enough to manage to create the buy in budget, sort out the good bits from bad and research the correct information to produce a running car for the very few meeting annually that genuinely and primarily cater for their interest, with one area proving the exception. With the loss of Story these are mostly small gatherings in scattered places, though there are others trying to keep the faith like DWAC. Will this sale have an effect on these events as the shock-wave works through?
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You dont think its worth me going and trying to buy back my fake Frisky then?
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Or the cut and shut Bond Mk C. ;D
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I didnt sell him a mkC, I owned that car for a while though but sold it here in the uk.
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kind of glad he never bought my Powerdrive now!
It was 'too big' for the museum! That's what Peter Svilans told me when it was for sale.
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Did I say you sold him the Mk C Bob?
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No Rob but just keeping you informed. ;)
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Indeed, many of them may go to... collectors that previously have had little to do with Micro cars. ...Monterrey California for the Concourso Italiano, Concours DeLemon... part of a well orchestrated campaign By Bruce Weiner....
Dude, taking an ex-Weiner microcar to the Concours d'LeMons is so 2009.
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Many a true word in jest, I like it.
Just agitating a bit. Are we suggesting that the imagined RUMcar fakes list would actually impact somewhat on Bruce's collection. Without looking that is three cars he has which are wrong 'uns as his Larmar is not a car but a converted Invalid Carriage.
For a long time he would not have GRP cars. I have heard the 'to big' reason too. Yet if your collecting surely multiples of a type are subordinate to a missing one. The collection is that, not a museum, as it shows the whimsy of its owner. He likes Goggo commercials for instance. Bad news till now, if you wanted one, but good if you wanted a Powerdrive or Horridnet. Then again the former are now worth £1,000s, alledgedly, and the later, not a lot for a very rare car. (Both are worth more than I would pay but that is another matter).
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Well, not completely in jest, the car had a brand new body shell and the wrong engine, although I didnt know that at the time!
Not the one to buy if you value originality.
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Well, not completely in jest, the car had a brand new body shell and the wrong engine, although I didnt know that at the time!
Not the one to buy if you value originality.
It had all the right parts, but not necessarily from, or in, the right place. Ideal for three differing house auction sales and it becomes Gorden Bedson's ex Le Man competing rarity worth 'fazands. So much better than the real thing and very next year at Goodwood. Just make sure John is otherwise occupied!!!
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I have heard the 'to big' reason too.
If so, wonder why he collected Lloyds! It must have been after the aforementioned Powerdrive was offered.
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probably - am happier where the Powerdrive went to anyway.
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I have heard the 'to big' reason too.
If so, wonder why he collected Lloyds! It must have been after the aforementioned Powerdrive was offered.
Ah, many a various are the Lloyds, and also rather successful. Just we never had many over here. But in the main, yes bigger to the point of not being a Microcar. Perhaps he could not see the joy of resting your arm on the sculptured ali door of the Powerdrive as you surveyed the local flora and fauna going passed - up hill with cows hurrying passed to be milked!
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Ah, many a various are the Lloyds, and also rather successful. Just we never had many over here. But in the main, yes bigger to the point of not being a Microcar. Perhaps he could not see the joy of resting your arm on the sculptured ali door of the Powerdrive as you surveyed the local flora and fauna going passed - up hill with cows hurrying passed to be milked!
lol
mine went faster than David's one - but it was never going to be a quick car - 0-30 could be measured in minutes!
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Bob P
was that the Yellow and white Frisky F3 on the web site
John
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It was indeed John. Someone started a rumour at the time that I had ripped the previous owner off, just for the record, it was for sale for some time, no one was interested, I paid the asking price and it was moved on to Bruce for a very modest three figure profit which barely covered costs. I wish I had kept it because it drove so nicely. The down side was that it had that villiers twin oil seal fault and henced smoked like billio! Having a new shell and wrong engine wouldnt bother me but I know for many out there it would. When I find out who started the rumour I shall be poking them right in the eye! ;)
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Available soon. T and Polo shirts with dart board printed on the back. Rally attendance, back stabbing for the use of. Can have 'I love Brucie' on the front if you like, bit controversial there, coming in.
The only defence for the minimalist motoring enthusiasts, now fully equipped camper-vans are so prevalent at events, is the reduced price supermarket baguette. Well its the weapon of choice with the BUMS, in the absence of the genuine French item which has a more rapier like quality when 8 hours old. MInd you we won the Battle of Catheter Castle with only stale buns against the massed ranks of the Bond Bug Club, but that was pure unadulterated idiocy rather than a response to a stealth attack. I expect such action would be banned now since fun is not allowed to spoil an occasion. However we retain our right to the old aerodynamic baguette, be it bent for throwing like a boomerang, stiff for poking, crumbly for getting camper-van beds or sleeping bags alike. But chiefly to nibble if there is any good cheese laying about. Cheese knifes are not so good for back stabbing, save round corners, so you know your on a chance of a good enthusiast when you see one, or a devious begger.
Strangely baguettes are equally as good on Mopeds and really jousting training should be begun before very much longer. It is very much easier than with MIcrocars but the BUMS are very proficient at that, though for TV we used more visible and durable foam bats.
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A poke in the eye with a blunt baguette! Now that would be a "Brucie bonus"! :D
I have seen pictures of your Heinkel jousting, even with spongy lances it looked pretty dangerous, hilarious though!
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Hi Bob P
THe Frisky F3 originaly came from a friend of mine in Bridgewater he has rebuilt the chassis and also the engine . A gent from scotland bought and restpored it very nicely he relaced the shell with anothe F3 shell (so no real probs there). He admired my original yellow and white Coupe and copied it but reversed it being yellow roof and white body ( I believe it was nicknamed the flying egg!). Seats were put in the back, the F3 Mk1 didnt have these in fact the F3 mk2 only had them for a short while as it entailed sawing your pasengers legs off to get them in the back (not very popular!) As you say the engine should have been a Villiers 9E which all Mk 1s had. This had been replaced by a 3T. The later Mk 2 used twins both excelcior and Viliers 3T. The originaL registration No.was relpaced in 1999
The clips of it on youtube of it at the 1999 toddington rally show it really getting a move on. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLEaFowQX3k&feature=related) It requires very little to put it "right". I know the original buyer guy got it for a good price but I dont know of any body ripping any one off! It will be interesting to see were it goes next. The original body was for sale on ebay not long ago from a LandRover dealer along with other parts no doubt it will surface one day.
John
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Oh, I have seen that crazed body shell on ebay more than once, didnt realise it was from this car. I bought it from a guy in Sunderland, not Scotland so maybe there was an other owner in between. I paided a record price for a F3 at the time as far as I know so it wasnt me that got a bargain! The point I was making was that there are many a collector out there that wouldnt be happy with a car that doesnt have its original body or engine. 9e's are getting harder to find now so not that esay to correct that..
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Reading further about the RM auction.
It is not the sale of the contents of the museum. It is the sale of some 200 vehicles within the collection associated to the museum.
That is a completely different thing to what everyone is talking about unless Bruce only has 200 vehicles, which I somehow doubt. Could it be all the duplicates, spares, growlers, uneconomic restorations and vaguely associated cars are to be culled leaving a core quality microcar collection? That which remains within a trust? It makes a great deal of sense as the way Bruce buys collections, and on given descriptions without viewing, he will inevitably end up with unwanted or disappointing cars, for a number of reasons. I fear that news of the end of the Bruce Weiner Collection might be a little bit previous.
The news talks of a nigh on comprehensive collection of Messerschmitts including the only Sport, a Tiger etc. Mentions Goggo transporters and other rarities. However it does not say these will all be making the line up for the auction. It is the publicity machine rolling. We will have to await the catalogue to understand what he is looking to part with.
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More information coming through.
To attend the two days of viewing will require the copy of the 700 page catalogue be bought for entry. That is $100. To access the auction itself is a further $50. The catalogue is promoted as a hard bound copy and with signed option. I believe a soft bound copy is to be available as well. There seems to be a separate catalogue to deal with the toys, literature and automobilia. No doubt these various publications will become collectors items in there own right.
This shows how Bruce is just smarter than the average bear as in producing a collectable item for access the treaty to come and play is both an entry level to keep out the riff raff but sustainable in the long term. Having spent $150 are going to want to leave empty handed? Watch and learn from someone who knows what he is doing.
Looking at it another way, sobering to think that for about £125 you can go to a three day 'rally' with more cars present than we normally get at our biggest national events with a rather good autojumble. Starts looking less expensive. I wonder if there are camping facilities included if one asked nicely?
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veeeeery interesting ;)
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Sounds like I need to go on a road trip before the auction!
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This shows how Bruce is just smarter than the average bear as in producing a collectable item for access the treaty to come and play is both an entry level to keep out the riff raff but sustainable in the long term. Having spent $150 are going to want to leave empty handed? Watch and learn from someone who knows what he is doing.
Bruce is not handling the auction or the book/catalog. All of that is in the hands of the auction company.
He did apparently have some say in getting the main catalog to be a hardcover item though. People have been asking about a "book" for years.
A fee for Preview days and Auction itself is S.O.P for these kinds of events.
I wonder if there are camping facilities included if one asked nicely?
Not included, but there are full-service camping facilities available next door. Short walk and closer than any of the hotels which are still 2.5 miles away.
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This shows how Bruce is just smarter than the average bear as in producing a collectable item for access the treaty to come and play is both an entry level to keep out the riff raff but sustainable in the long term. Having spent $150 are going to want to leave empty handed? Watch and learn from someone who knows what he is doing.
Bruce is not handling the auction or the book/catalog. All of that is in the hands of the auction company.
He did apparently have some say in getting the main catalog to be a hardcover item though. People have been asking about a "book" for years.
A fee for Preview days and Auction itself is S.O.P for these kinds of events.
I wonder if there are camping facilities included if one asked nicely?
Not included, but there are full-service camping facilities available next door. Short walk and closer than any of the hotels which are still 2.5 miles away.
I was thinking of comparison with folks selling via a national based but regional auctions like the recent Coys sale. They charge for viewing etc but is any of that material of value afterwards? The catalogue told you next to nothing about the cars. As with the Christies sale before it I am quite sure that RM are acting in a fully functional way. However the vendor has some effect on the success of the outcome of a sale by choosing the bests terms and conditions available backed by active marketing. Of course if you have a valuable collection you are better positioned to obtain the best service. My experience of auctions with limited entry value is your more than likely to be stiffed unless you are about it. Far better to hold as much leverage as you can muster. If it were me selling a few rare vehicles I would have sought out others complimentary to build into a must not miss sale selected for best access to the selling market.
Camping available as well as normal services. Sounds like an event to be at to me.