RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on October 19, 2012, 04:12:42 PM
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thats the question what do others do ? thanks
its the primary chaincase of course Villiers specified straight 30 before multigrade oils - must i stick to 30 grade nowadays i usually would but do i need to ?
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I think it has to be straight 30 if you have cork clutch plates. My old Bond had fibre plates and I used 20/50. My 9e that I'm currently rebuilding also has fibre plates so will be doing the same.
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Ah, the old oil question. ST 30 is a mineral oil with very little in the way of additives. It might be now considered a poor lubricant compared to modern oils. However it depends what you are using the oil for. Early multi-grades were an effort to harmonise oil grades into one package rather than differing versions of differing grades at differing times of year. Fine. Modern multi-grades are more technically advanced and are made for engines that run as modern engines do with the idea of pump lubricated shell bearings. So it is sticky to coat surfaces. That is why modern Multi-grade oil is not right for your Heinkel. This is splash lubricated on a roller bearing big end. If the oil is splash resistant and sticks to the roller-bearing big end inhibiting its ability to roll you effectively have poor lubrication and an early failure. As proof, all the people who used to belt about UK and Europe using modern oils and arguing the better oil meant longer than 600 mile oil changes and who promptly had engine failures most trips. Where as Mick Lesson and co, who stuck to the recommendations, had faster cars that lasted a lot longer.
Not knowing much of Villiers engines I cannot really comment but with cork friction material sulphur based, Hypoid containing oil and other additives strip off the friction material. By definition a wet clutch has to still have some friction to work. So too good a lubricant is, perhaps, a problem. I am less sure about the effects of a very sticky oil. It might effect release. Good for the chain? Effectively though the Sachs set up is made for crap oil technology. Maybe Villiers is the same? ST/SAE30 oil is cheap though. Best source, farm shops, as it is farmers light utility oil of choice and used on anything thought ought to move but might not, plus a lot of mechanisms such as lawn mowers.
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Are you sure you've got this right, the Villiers manual and the book of the Villiers recommends SAE 20 for the Chaincase (It's SAE 30 for the gearbox). In the Villiers book it also gives Castrol's recommendation of Castrolite 10W/30 for the chaincase.
There was a comprehensive article on oil and lubricants in Practical Classics March 2012 edition. It says pretty much the same thing as Big Al; whether or not to use a multigrade depends on clearances. Whilst a high viscosity oil may appear the easy choice, its harder to push into a tight space and could cause a bearing or meshing gears to run dry momentarly whereas too thin an oil in a larger space could easily escape leaving metal surfaces in contact with each other under load. Monogrades are more stable, multigrades are at home in most conditions where engine dimension tolerances are not too large. Overall, it's better in the long term to use lubricants that have been formulated for specific use.
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The other specification is normal running temperature. The hotter, the thinner the oil behaves. This was one advantage of Multi-grades - within their specified operating temperatures-. Cheap multi-grade in a Heinkel engine tends to turn into wee wee as the engines often run hot as they are often not bang on tune. Again probably less of an issue with a separate primary drive system.
It is also interesting to note the Transverse A series were renown for destroying their oil because of the gearbox sharing the engine oil, hence regular oil changes. The Heinkel service of 600 miles ignores that as it is primarily an issue of keeping the oil clean without a filter arrangement. However it is point to bear in mind if you are tempted to mix gear oils for engine multi-grades over a long period. There is a reason why they are different, and I think why they have a different viscosity scale.
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I love the smell of Castrol R in the morning........................
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I love the smell of Castrol R in the morning........................
Mmmmm!
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Is this where Castrol got its name from. Caster oil. Greatly used on rotary aero engines and such and a carcinogen as will as an emetic. A dab behind the ear before going out though....
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much confusion here - and i started it ! AGAIN :) bob and rusty compounded it tho m'lud , allbeit in an effort to help . in the gordon manual it lists 140 grade gearbox and 30 grade for the " engine " i now understand this to be to mix the fuel .
now understanding 140 grade for both gearbox and chaincase . this i have already. others info as dodgy as my own - beware bob
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I love the smell of Castrol R in the morning........................
I'm still using it in my Puch and Guzzino, it hasnt killed me yet or bunged up my engine. It actually makes the Puch engine sound much better, must take up some of the slack!
The Kneels wheels moped run is only a couple of weeks away, this was the one where I familiarized myself with the cabbage field last year, was that really a year ago??!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa0HKiArW4k What can I do to top it this year?
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much confusion here - and i started it ! AGAIN :) bob and rusty compounded it tho m'lud , allbeit in an effort to help . in the gordon manual it lists 140 grade gearbox and 30 grade for the " engine " i now understand this to be to mix the fuel .
now understanding 140 grade for both gearbox and chaincase . this i have already. others info as dodgy as my own - beware bob
Well I refer to the 11e/9e manual and it says SAE30 for the gearbox and SAE20 for the chaincase. Morris oils[golden] film do a SAE20 and there is Castrol QT as well. This may also suit yours Dickie. http://www.holden.co.uk/displayProduct.asp?pcode=090.967 So the water is even muddier now, you are saying 140 grade for the chain case which is a very thick gear oil and my manual is saying 20 with is almost transmission fluid! Looking at the link above though it is definatley recommending SAE20 for motorcycle chaincases.
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not sure if this will be clear to read but lets see , this from the book of the bond minicar , the oils for the 6e, 8e are QUITE different from the 9e . i had always thought of the 9e as being a developement of the 8e . obviously not something big must have changed in the chaincase/clutch area to go from 140 for gearbox and chaincase ( seperate devices ) to 30 for gearbox and 20 for the chaincase/clutch !
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Cant argue with that Richard! Thats what the book says. Even more amazing that it specifies SAE 5 for the Bond MkG chaincase, thats turpetine isnt it?
Does go to comfirm what Al said, the oil spec differs according to the engine tolerances, all I can assume is that the early villiers lumps must have been fettered up with a coarse file by a bodger in the woods! Only joking! I love working on the villiers, its so easy!
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Just to clarify it once and for all, Page 5 of Bonds Minicar Mark B Instruction book says use Castrol D (SAE 140) in the 6E clutch and gearbox whilst the chart on page 36 of the same book says to use Castrol XL (which is 20W/50) for the gearbox and Castrolite (which is 10W/30) for the chaincase! :'( I've only got a Villiers manual for the 9E so I don't know what they specify for the 6E
A factor that must have some relevance to this confused picture is that SAE values are not based upon a constant scale but are relative to their specific use so a SAE 140 gear oil is roughly the same viscosity as an SAE 60 engine oil. However because of the additives, gear oils work differently under pressure than engine oils. I wouldbe tempted to contact Castrols classic oil department to see what they say.
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014114&contentId=7027142 (http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014114&contentId=7027142)
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What can I do to top it this year?
Get a Cauliflower ear on an East bloc Brasica Windspeed 50?
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much confusion here - and i started it ! AGAIN :) bob and rusty compounded it tho m'lud , allbeit in an effort to help . in the gordon manual it lists 140 grade gearbox and 30 grade for the " engine " i now understand this to be to mix the fuel .
now understanding 140 grade for both gearbox and chaincase . this i have already. others info as dodgy as my own - beware bob
Prior to preparatory mixing two stroke being available for two stroke engines the recommendation was to use a ratio of SAE 30 as the mixing oil in your fuel. So I think they are saying SAE 30 as two stroke oil in your fuel, therefore to lub the inner crankcase.
There will be a gear oil. If the clutch is wet, that will be an old engine oil without additives. If it is not with the clutch it can be a gear oil using the gear oil viscosity grades, which are not always the same as engine oil viscosity grades since they are doing a different job. For instance an old straight cut transfer box uses real syrup. A helical modern synchro box something much lighter but with additives that really are not appropriate to a Villiers nor on the same viscosity scale. Early Bonds and Gordons are hailing back to engine technology of the war years when gloop was good. As time went on oil technology improved and specs might have altered. I see Rusty Chrome is pretty much of the same opinion.
Chaincase, if that is open or leaky then gloop will stay on the chain longer. If closed I see less reason for a heavy oil. Again oil technology improved and stickier oils become available.