RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Barry on June 24, 2014, 12:41:02 PM
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/42377616533/
What do we think?
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I think he should GET OFF THE BLOODY 'PHONE!
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Its a dog!
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Poodle Faker!
Either it is some parts of a 'scmitt bowdlerised and robbed of its original character or it has no 'schmitt parts and was designed by someone with precious little originality.
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That's a Mitsuka isn't it? Or one of those new stylised thingys that was splashed around the internet a year or so ago?
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But..but...but...I thought all those 'schmitt/isetta clones are just concepts and NEVER get off a computer and into reality, certainly not actually MADE, then made to WORK, then ACTUALLY USED ON PUBLIC ROADS !
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Was going to post a reply but bearing in mind daves advice I won't until I've parked up
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Maybe it looked more convincing on the CAD program, OWHY. Still as long as the owners happy with the slightly melted Tiger ice lolly look.
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these were made by Mitsuoka Motors in Japan from about 1998-2007
http://www.mitsuoka-motor.com/lineup/history/microcar/
I believe they have 50cc motors.
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It was a mystery car in Rumcar news several years back. Assuming they were road legal, I'm sure these would sell as well over here as those P50 replicas.
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Indeed they might. This is the same outfit that did the Jag look alike Newt affair, is it? Great if you like such things and they have had some success.
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I like it.
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>:( honestly im not keen .....it lost its characteristic for the original style but I will say its a modern take of a Schmitt -
bit like the beetle old bug are cool but as time goes on aswell as updates we come to the new beetles '' not so keen ''
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>:( honestly im not keen .....it lost its characteristic for the original style but I will say its a modern take of a Schmitt -
bit like the beetle old bug are cool but as time goes on aswell as updates we come to the new beetles '' not so keen ''
I agree with you, but it's always a big problem updating an Iconic design, be it the Beetle, Mini, 2CV, Fiat 500, Isetta, Schmitt, Morgan Thre Wheelers and other .
Some work out decently( Morgan in my opinion) others look really bad (new Bettle), but things do change, so we have tu accept that it's part of the game in design.
I personally wonder what would make a modern Schmitt or Isetta appeal in 2014 ?
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that's a true thought there what would make a bubble revive it self in the modern world
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Designers flirt with the notion but modern safety and gizmo requirements would suggest that the real '50's minimalist approach is most unlikely to be a success without the intervention of a political or financial incentive. A possible marketable modern micro currently would need to make best use of the newest of technology, this tends to be beyond stylists and designers, and is the preserve of the engineer. Just as ever it was with the best of the Classic Microcars. They tending to be from the pinnacle of the breed then, aero-engineers, using first principle thinking, not copying what went before.
The contender exists, by Gordon Murray, not from the aero world, but from the new pinnacle of Motor Racing. Yet even this stunningly clever and ground breaking car cannot find a backer to mass market it.
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I thought they had a backer to put T.25 into production?
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/murray-t25-and-t27-confirmed-production
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For me the closest thing to a modern day Schmitt is the Eco-exo which was designed by Stuart Mills of MEV. Clearly an exo skeleton car, but that affords reasonable crash protection as you are effectively surround by a roll cage- certainly safer than a motorbike IMO. Wouldn't take a huge leap of imagination to make a GRP shell to fully enclose the car.
(http://exomotive.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Eco-Exo-R.jpg)
With a standard 400cc Suzuki lump in the back you have a power to weight ratio of over 150 bhp per ton, that's GTI territory but with 75mpg+ economy, sweet.
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That Eco-Exo looks great and must be a lot of fun. However I am not sure how good it would be for myself and squeak to go for a drive, go shopping, or for me to carry a compact drum kit in! Many Bubbles and Micros were genuinely USEFUL tiny cars, room for some shopping or camping gear and weather protection.
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Two comments.
Church Pod.
What makes Eco-exo a microcar? Are we getting confused over engines again? Microcars are not sportscars. Sporting, possibly. The key element is minimalist everyday transportation, as far as I am concerned.
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No confusion here.
RUM definition of a micro car-
Economy vehicles with either three or four wheels, powered by petrol engines of no more than 700cc or battery electric propulsion, and manufactured since 1945
The eco-exo is a reverse trike usually paired with a 400cc Suzuki Burgman engine. This engine produces about 32-35 horsepower depending on the vintage, with the newer efi models bringing higher power and efficiency than the earlier carburettor based versions. The trike can also be fitted with a 250 variant of the engine, although that version is no longer in production. The performance is purely from point of the very lightweight design (462 pounds), and I don't see why microcars shouldn't be sporty. In all forms it's a micro car as far as I'm concerned.
In it's standard form it's not hugely practical (although no worse than a motorcycle) having no real weather protection, but some could be constructed by a home builder. In my view it's a good base to start from. Some builders in the states have attached panniers to the side. My Dad did something similar with his Messershcmitt back in the 60's- his KR200 wasn't exactly blessed with stowage space as standard.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/subculture84/14816431207_9d82ae7c60_h_zps31b19b35.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/subculture84/media/14816431207_9d82ae7c60_h_zps31b19b35.jpg.html)
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> I don't see why microcars shouldn't be sporty. In all forms it's a micro car as far as I'm concerned. <
Well, Andy, I guess it hinges on "economy". Microcars are (as the Rumcars definition says) essentially "economy" cars, and very few sports cars manage both performance and economy.
To what extent is the Eco-exo an economy car? (Nowadays, it'd need to do about 100 mpg to be regarded as an economy car - after all, I've just been for an 80-mile ride in my 1.5-tonne, 5-seater estate car and got 77.3 mpg average!)
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Seems a micro to me, but even if not it is still "Unusual" ! The Messerschmitt record breaker is more Sports Car than "Micro" or "Bubble", but still counts in my book!
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That is RUMcars definition for an Unusual Microcar, spot on. Repeat.
Church Pod.
(A scooter with a front chassis converting it into a three wheeler commuter car. 250cc twist and go with a roof. That is a microcar. Its practical transport not a sportscar for dry weather. If I cut the roof off and put a burgman in, what do I have? An Exo-pod, not a microcar. Microcars are little related to Motorcycles, historically. Much more in common with Scooters, to the extent of being weatherproof scooters in some incarnations)
What makes this a microcar?
(So a Formula Junior racing car is a microcar, is it? Other than other peoples definition, nothing so far here. So I remain at difference. But you all knew that anyway! )
Slightly mystified by the use of the term reverse trike. I assume this is referring to the two wheels at the front. Not heard that before. It always seemed rather silly to have the wheels the other way round to me, but there we go, it gets the message across efficiently so I go with it.
This shows the reason why Microcars, or Classic Microcars, need to have a closing date to define their era.
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I've seen the Church pod you mentioned. Not quite my cup of tea although I appreciate some of the finer points of the design, to my mark one eyeball the eco-exo looks a more balanced design.
Doubtful the 400cc version would give you 100mpg, but you might well achieve that with the 250cc version.
Granted that many modern cars with diesel or stratified charge petrol engines can give impressive economy under cruise conditions, but with short journeys in urban environments with lots of stopping and starting, economy drops off significantly even with careful driving. That's the advantage of a lightweight car with a small engine.
The engine tech for scooters is less sophisticated than modern cars. Volkswagen have demonstrated what is possible with the use of a modern smaller engine in a streamlined bodyshell with the XL1- a car capable of well over 100mpg on diesel alone. However the cost of the car is ridiculous.
However I don't think economy is just about fuel use, but also economy of resources and energy in the manufacture of the vehicle.
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Church Pod is an odd shape, but one mans vision. I think you transposed the engine sizes, but yes indeed. The older 250cc should give 70 mph happily. Personally I think the narrow track/steering bar will then start to come into play for stability. More interesting is economy at around 55 mph as it is designed as a commuter.
Scooters offer twist and go. That is technology very much in the line that microcars might use, for it is ease of driving and a bought in solution ideal for limited capital production.
I doubt the big manufacturers have any real interest in tiny cars. Only political or financial pressure will get them to go there. See Q class cars as to what can be done.
Economy/green, spot on. How green are some of these special 'green' cars? How much greener is rebuilding older cars and uprating the engine.
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Sorry I was referring to the eco-exo when talking engine sizes. To the best of my knowledge no one has built an eco-exo with a 250cc engine, although it remains an option. Builders tend to plumb straight for the 400cc version.
I agree that manufacturers have little incentive to build smaller cars, when they can make a lot more money selling larger cars. Gordon Murray's istream production process may shake things up allowing smaller manufacturers to build little cars competitively that also comply with modern safety legislation.
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But this car concept is already old now. One plank of sales is missing, the shock of the new. Just shows the probs of production. Fend and co just got on with it, bumbled through, or not and a few cars made it. Minimalism in all cases.
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I thought they had a backer to put T.25 into production?
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/murray-t25-and-t27-confirmed-production
It could be Yamaha, as they did hire Gordon Murray to utilize his iStream manufacturing technology with one of their Concept Cars :
http://www.motorward.com/2013/11/yamaha-motiv-e-city-car-concept-takes-tokyo-storm/
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No I don't think so, the Motiv-e was a different car, albeit one sharing some ideas from the T.25.
I thought it may be someone like Virgin or Google or perhaps Apple dipping their toes into car production.
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Designers flirt with the notion but modern safety and gizmo requirements would suggest that the real '50's minimalist approach is most unlikely to be a success without the intervention of a political or financial incentive. A possible marketable modern micro currently would need to make best use of the newest of technology, this tends to be beyond stylists and designers, and is the preserve of the engineer. Just as ever it was with the best of the Classic Microcars. They tending to be from the pinnacle of the breed then, aero-engineers, using first principle thinking, not copying what went before.
The contender exists, by Gordon Murray, not from the aero world, but from the new pinnacle of Motor Racing. Yet even this stunningly clever and ground breaking car cannot find a backer to mass market it.
I agree with you that without political or financial incentives things won't change much.
Will it happen in the future? I'm not so sure, but maybe new concepts for Personal Mobility might and for those intetrested in driving something more functional and different .
With reference to " A possible marketable modern micro currently would need to make best use of the newest of technology, this tends to be beyond stylists and designers, and is the preserve of the engineer"
I'm not sure what do you mean ? I think that modern microcars in 2015, would have more in common with the likes of French and Italian Quadricycles, but if they were going to be manufactured by OEM's, they might actually look like the Renault Twizy or the Toyota I-Road Concept:
http://www.toyota-global.com/showroom/toyota_design/concept_cars/gallery_i-road.html
Being a romantic and nostalgic enthusiast I would love to see a specialist car manufacture come up with something modern or retro in styling using modern technology ( twist and go scooters are very good donors and plentyful) and believe that it's still achievable by a decent designer/stylist but would always need a good engineer.
Gordon Murray is a great engineer and I'm a fan of his, but he has always used designer/stylists for his cars( see the Mclaren F1 and others but maybe not the T25.... ) and in todays world if you want to sell a product you will always need a good designer/stylist....:)
The Mev Eco-Exo is a minimalist scooter based three wheeler and is close in concept to what I think is achievable by a small specialist manufacture.
I also think that a Cabin Scooter, being that of an updated Messerchmitt or Isetta is potentially feasable by a small specialist manufacture and if you use Retro inspired design/styling concepts like the image posted at the beginning of the thread, it could tap into the nostalgia and vintage enthusiast.
Maybe not all are going to like this as it happens often with modern retro design cars/motorcycles, but if it finds enough takers, than the product finds its own niche.
I've owned an old Mini and was passengered in the New Mini(2005) and have to say that I liked them both, but for different reasons.
The original was a pioneering design, the later is not and is only a bigger an updated retro inspired design that caters to the trendy and modern youngsters who would have never bought an original mini anyway....I'm not in that target group and would never spend that kind of money on it, but don't mind it.
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Slightly mystified by the use of the term reverse trike. I assume this is referring to the two wheels at the front. Not heard that before. It always seemed rather silly to have the wheels the other way round to me, but there we go, it gets the message across efficiently so I go with it.
It's the american definition of a three wheeler that has two front wheels and one rear wheel, sometimes even called the Tadpole configuration...
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I see Fiat have gone the same route with the 500 as Mini. A bigger car called a Mini. We have a bigger car called a 500. Its lost the looks, the style and the relevance. Just as modern Mini turned into Maxi the 500 is turning into the 127, or some such. Its all just market and silly nonesense.
Getting back to microcars. THey do have to be Micro. Not modern images of microcars the same size as a 2CV. Clearly there is a danger in that. Even Murrey Mints are large in microcar terms. For specialised, kit or component cars there is a clear niche market available. Quite what fills that will in no way please everyone, nor possibly be a pure microcar. It will be interesting, if advantages in materials and technology are used sensibly. The bar here is again the hostility of the State to any kind of low budget innervation, just as they warp the agenda on genuine green policy. A free market approach would be more likely to bring us something as radicle as, say, the Messerschmitt when it first appeared.
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The "new" Mini is now on its 3rd model number (at least) and each one is bigger, the big Coppers and Clubman are now almost as big and heavy as a first series Range Rover.
The "new" Fiat 500 has just started its 2nd series...even bigger, and again almost the size of the original Range Rover. The "old new" 500 had 1300 cc engines, so why call it "500"? I reckon the latest biggest ones probably have even bigger engines.
Resources are running out so cars get bigger, have more components and equipment and use up more Planetary resources. It's a Mad,Mad, Mad, Mad World.
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the big Coppers and Clubman are now almost as big and heavy as a first series Range Rover.
Down my way the Coppers look like youngsters but I wouldn't want to cross one! ;D
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Oops! COOPERS!
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Drivers seem to expect more and more equipment levels, ever improving safety levels etc. Then there's the changes made to accommodate pedestrian impact (e.g. frontal area has increased). Lots of glass on modern cars which is very heavy compared with steel.
Modern cars are built like tanks. They have built in roll cages, and everything is double or triple skinned so they survive impact much better than older cars, but it comes with a weight penalty. This is why companies are increasingly moving towards composites e.g. BMW with the i3 is a good example which utilizes a Carbon fibre shell mated to an aluminium chassis. Expensive however.
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It is when the judges look young you want to worry.
Chris Thomas
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Down my way the Coppers look like youngsters but I wouldn't want to cross one! ;D
If you crossed one with a Tinpot Official would you get a Bronzed hunk?
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Resources are running out so cars get bigger, have more components and equipment and use up more Planetary resources. It's a Mad,Mad, Mad, Mad World.
I agree with you and that is why I believe there will be a shift in the next 5-10 years and if not political it will be social, due to Climate change and the unsustainability of our current cunsumption of natural resources.
In my personal opinion, Microcars will have a come back in our City centres as Personal Transport for future Urban Mobility especially in congested metropolis in Europe.
In the developing world you would need specifically designed vehicles that take into account their needs, roads and cultural traits.
Here is an interesting Design Brief for future young designers, to create a future vehicle where Mobility for All is the catch phrase:
http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/the-challenge-for-2016/how-to-enter/
Mobility for All
Designing for the Next Frontier
Mobility is essential for personal transport, commerce, growth and access to clean water, health care and services for people around the world. Access to sustainable mobility is one of the cornerstones of economic and social progress, yet hundreds of millions of people have little or no access to mobility.
The Michelin Challenge Design theme for 2016 is “Mobility For All – Designing for the Next Frontier”. The challenge is to design a personal, family or commercial vehicle that provides simple, functional and affordable mobility to an underserved area in Southeast Asia, Central America, Central Africa or an area that you identify.
Just as the Citroen 2CV, Volkswagen Beetle and Ford Model T became iconic vehicles in their respective regions by enabling mobility; your design will help provide mobility to an area in need.
The flexibility, ingenuity, simplicity, ease of use and repair of your vehicle will be among the criteria used in judging your entry.
Michelin Challenge Design will recognize exciting and passionate designs that employ innovative vehicle architecture and technologies, without compromising functionality, safety or comfort. The vehicle’s capabilities must include dimensional specifications and visual detail of the tire/wheel assembly.
Read the Brief and it does make you think of a Microcar for the 21st century of some sorts....