RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: Bob Purton on November 12, 2014, 09:57:25 AM
-
I have just finished refurbishing my steering wheel. Its a Nobel one that blob of this forum flogged me some years ago. I wasnt sure if it was worth doing at the time as there were large chunks missing and many cracks all over it. I know that if you are willing to pay substantial amounts you can get the whole hard rubber casing re-molded but I thought I would try and save it as it was.
It wasnt a total leap of faith as I had already repaired the steering bar on my old schmitt and although a hairline crack re-appeared some time latter I was still fairly happy with the results.
I guess the difference between a steering bar and a wheel is that with the bar quite a lot of tension is exerted onto the bar ends especially when slow maneuvering and with nothing to stop the ends flexing . Once the rubber gets to a certain age it loses its flexibility whereas with a wheel every action is supported somewhere reducing the chance of cracking. I think most cracked wheels are just the result of material shrinkage.
Anyway, I cut out all the cracked areas and loose chunks then started filling using PC7. After much fiddling and fettering I got it to the stage of being ready for its top coat of paint. When I restored the schmitt bar I used some left over 2k paint, had it put in an aerosol by my local automotive paint shop and sprayed it air dry, no hardener. This worked out well as to this day it hasnt worn through and this kind of paint does remain flexible to some extent.
So, I did this agian with the nobel wheel using some pepper white 2k left over from the underside of Bobette. here are the results. I'm quite pleased. Also I wasnt prepared to pay a lot for a genuine white center button so the one you see is from a Reliant, they are very cheap and paint over easily. Job done for not much money.
-
Top job Bob!
-
Looks mint.
I looked up PC7, as I didn't know what it was. An epoxy based filler type glue. Should be very strong.
Worth looking at modified acrylic adhesives for this kind of job, they're stronger than epoxies for plastic bonding as they actually key into the plastic as opposed to cling onto it like epoxy. The finished joint is tougher than the original material in the majority of cases. If you can also add a bit of fibre reinforcement over areas of damage, then that will also go a long way to preventing cracks reappearing.
Don't know if you sat the Wheelerdealers eposide where they restored the Isetta, but they had the wheel refurbished for that, and it looked to me like the chap remoulding the rim was using a mixture of polyester resin and chopped glass strands for reinforcement.
-
Hi Andy. I did see that episode. I didnt log what they used, just assumed it was vulcanite. A more modern material would make more sense though.
I like PC7 because it retains flexibility which matches the nature of the material I was repairing , also if you drill a series of holes into the sides of the cut for the epoxy to be forced into it does key in well. I didnt invent this repair system, it was written up years ago in Kabin news. There may well be better products out there now.
One day I will remove the fancy laced cover from my Isetta wheel. I dread to think what its covering up as the standard of restoration on the car was rather inconsistent!
Could this be a suitable subject for a RCN article?
-
Dear Bob
Steering wheel restoration would make a good article for RCN.
Chris Thomas
Rumcar News
-
Oh good Chris. I will look forward to reading that! ;)
-
I don't know what original resin was used. I would think that was a heat cured product to speed up manufacture, rather than something cured by catalytic reaction like the products created in smaller batch production or for DIY use.
I have three steering wheels, none of them have what I would consider to be a rubbery texture. The plastic rim is hard plastic. Two rims are from Isetta's, the third liberated from a rather forlorn burnt out Reliant Regal many moons ago.
-
Maybe the hard rubber substance is a German product then as the schmitt bar was not a hard plastic and the Nobel wheel wasnt either, perhaps a Fuldamobil item??
When I say vulcanite, I use it in my work with Wimshurst machines and other influence machines/electrostatic apparatus and it's a little like bakalite only softer[turns nicely], you know its rubber based when you machine it from the smell it gives off. My Nobel wheel gave off a similar odour when I was cutting sections out with a grinder. You have to be careful when machining some of those antique compound materials because you never know whats in them, I nearly passed out once when turning a compound billiard ball, still I suppose I should of been grateful it didnt explode.
I see where you are coming from though, If the wheel was made of a hard resin type material I would have used another product. Maybe you should volunteer to write the article? You have obviously restored a lot of microcars. I'm all for sharing the knowledge.
-
Only have the one microcar, Bob. Happy enough with that, and it leaves some others to enjoy.
It's interesting, because my wheels seem to be hard rigid plastic. perhaps they've gone hard with age?
-
You surprise me, for some reason I thought you were a long standing bubbler, must be thinking of someone else. So the Isetta is your first project then? I think the material on those wheels must vary some as my dad was a lifetime Reliant driver and I dont ever remember seeing any shrinkage or cracking on any of his old Regals. The Nobel wheel isnt rubbery or squashy to touch, you only realize its not hard plastic when you start to cut or drill it. Same with Schmitt steering bars.
-
maybe you two are discussing relative hardnesss ?
-
I've been involved in the micro car scene for a long time, went to my first rally back 1989. However for a few years I was just a curious spectator. I didn't have the facilities or finance to own a car like that.
When I eventually found and purchased a car, it was a bit of a wreck, and I still had to build the facilities to renovate and house it. I worked on various aspects of the car, then other aspects of life took over, and work stopped.
A lot of work was done on the car, although the main job left is to sort the shell out. It needs a little bit of welding here and there, a few dents bumping out, and a through strip to clean off all the rust and have it readied for respraying.
Was thinking of having the door dipped, as the box sections were rusty inside (not heavy pitting) and shotpeening won't deal with that. Have heard a few horror tales of this however- don't want the door coming back looking like a lace doily!
I stopped attending rallies in the early nineties, the last I attended was the National in 1993. My work patterns sometimes made weekends awkward, and if I'm honest my interest in the rally scene had waned a little as it seemed the cars were being renovated to a higher standard, but were being used less and less.
The rallies I always enjoyed the most were the Quainton and Bath events. Large enough to get some variety, but small and informal enough that you had a chance to get around and talk to a few people. Plus they seemed to attract the kind of owners that really used the cars.
-
Well, from the few chats we have had so far you sound more than qualified to do a good restoration but if I can help in any way I will. That said, I'm more of an Inter expert that an Isetta one.
I know what you mean about the rally scene though. I have started to favour the smaller events as well. Never been mad on the National although I do plan to go next year to be supportive but mainly to show off the new car which should be finished by then[I said that last year as well!] ;D Last year at Malvern the forum users met up for a chat on the Sunday which was good. Put some faces to names. We should do that again next year.
Havnt done Bath for a few years. Maybe next year.
-
maybe you two are discussing relative hardnesss ?
Apparently lots of things get less hard as the years go by. Even I've started to notice with some things... :'(
-
Mark provided a good item on restoring the Schmitt steering bar in Take Off which is accessible on the net I believe.
A service exists that takes in duff bars and restores them in Germany. Its not cheap. However efforts to replicate this item are frustrated by the lack of whatever steel alloy was used in the original. Its very tough metal and resists hacksaws with some success. It would never break in normal service meaning a crack is not the end of the world. Though it can rust over time peeling off the casing.
Early Goggo and Heinkel Ireland have issues with cracked steering wheels too.
Rallies, well its not just me then. However if folk vote with their feet and say nothing then the situation does not get resolved into more active events, unless an organiser takes the chance to attempt a more varied event. Constructive criticism should be welcomed.
Strangely at clubnight it was once again stated by two guys unbidden that the last 'good' National they attended was Toddington - 1999. Not just for activity but because it was the last to feature a full field of autojumble. I cannot really comment on that for several reasons.
Bath might well be a slightly different event next year. That might well please more folk and it is to be hoped some more might attend in cars. Hatton has every chance to do well. It is very much a venue that can be driven too. Chuck in a lot of Frisky in one place and maybe a surprise or two and why would you miss it? Blimey even Root is talking of driving up there.
But have the Maniacs not been driving thier cars over the last decade or so? Perhaps the South it is, that is whinging.
-
Perhaps they case hardened the steel. Seems a bit OTT for a set of handlebars mind.
Could always incorporate some modern composite reinforcement in the mould, like carbon and kevlar. That would make it incredibly strong, probably more than it needs to be in truth.
Sadly, when it comes to rallies I don't think you can wind the clock back. With increasing values of micro cars you tend to get a different kind of owner, the IOC had a go at organising a fun run for Isettas a few years back, and I think they ended up with about two people and a dog (not sure if the latter was driving).
-
Aircraft quality alloy, I think.
Strangely the IOC never really seemed to connect into either having an annual rally of their own, or into great numbers of active drivers on the piste of events, in relation to the numbers of cars left. No idea why. Of course they had their stalwarts who popped up all over the place. Different cars, different wrinkles and fads.
-
They had the AGM and club rally, which was usually held in May. I went to about four of those, the first in 1989, which was held on the outskirts of Leicester. They were nice little events as I recall.
I think a fair number of Isetta owners ran their cars on a wing and prayer, you used to hear a lot of them with tinkly engines, sounding none too healthy, so I guess their owners didn't trust them on a long journey. Then you'd have the flip side with cars so immaculate you could eat your dinner off the underside of the floorpan, but probably only get a trip round to the local once a year.
So the handlebars were aluminium. Might be an aircraft grade, which is tougher, although no aluminium is ever as strong as steel.
-
No the handlebars are not aluminium. They have a steel core.
Someone started making cast aluminium replacements but try driving with those in the winter , your hands would get frost bite.
As I'm typing this the stupid American spell check is telling me I cant spell Aluminium! ::)
-
As I'm typing this the stupid American spell check is telling me I cant spell Aluminium! ::)
I just found out there is a British version of "English" available for the forum and installed it as the default language.
I am absolutely serious.
It should work a lot better now.
-
Aw Jim can't we just stay with the double Dutch one that we have now got used to ? ;)
-
Thanks for trying Jim but nothing has changed at this end. Its still telling me I cant spell aluminium, colour, tyre and all the others. Looks like we are stuck with pigeon English.
Of course it will not stop most of us spelling these words correctly but its a little worrying to think that young ones will be "educated" in the ways of colonial English by means of an erroneous spell check.
Not a big issue but one that does annoy quite a few users. Not your fault though Jim. I for one am only too grateful we have a capable webmaster.
-
No the handlebars are not aluminium. They have a steel core.
Someone started making cast aluminium replacements but try driving with those in the winter , your hands would get frobite
It is a steel alloy, perhaps with titanium in, or some such. This goes back to a theory that one W. Messerschmitt sent his team of top young engineers in when the car morphed from the Fend KR175 to the much different KR200. In much the same way I described Vickers looking at the Frisky using there young engineers. If Vickers had taken on production I am certain they would have insisted on reviewing the design. What Vickers made have would not have been the Frisky we know. A contributory reason why it did not happen in all probability. For the Messerschmitt the leap in development from Flitzer to KR175 is logical. Then, wham, the KR200 appears from left field, as clever true stressed steel monocoque, rubber in torsion suspension, floating engine mountings but solid drive. Graded steels to task and attention to many small issues that speak of some considerable thought to make things light but work. Its almost a different car using the same concept. The then modification to a four wheeler is logical, and not such a big leap as the one before.
It was the wonderful Frank Jeavens who made some ali steering bars. Scootacar steering bars are ali, aren't they?
-
Solid drive? The whole chain case is floating a rubber hence the steering wander problems that some have. [wait for clever answer from Al] Good point about Scootacar steering bars, I think they are solid aluminium. I guess if they are coated in something thick enough it would insulate your hands.
Frank Jevons made some good stuff, I got by bird badge from he.
-
Sorry for the deviation but I didn't start it . Are you sure it's not your own device that's correcting you Bob ? My iPhone is a pain in this respect but if I post via my laptop I don't think the forum spell check interferes does it ?
-
Don't know what browser you're running. I use Firefox, where you can download a plug-in UK english dictionary. Firefox is a cross platform compatible browser.
I very much doubt that they used Titanium in the Messerschmitt, it's incredibly expensive, and they were budget cars after all. Plus it's complete overkill for the application.
-
Could be. I didnt think of that Richard. Will investigate.
-
I'm using firefox as well. Will have to look into that.
Agreed about the titanium.
-
There is not a clever answer, sadly. I give you my view.
The engine has no effect on the rear suspension other than a slight force as it powers up, tensioning the chain vertically, so no prob. The carden shaft is the key element. The engine can vibrate but the shaft remains in drive all the time -Spring to the Swing- remember. No energy sapping girt rubbers. No engine solidly mounted to chaindrive so the whole thing bobs up and down on mounts and suspension. No collars to wear on a rubber mounted engine like the Heinkel, which still weaves on its mounts anyway. The schmitt does not offer engine vibration, try the KR175 and you get what one other option offers using pretty much the same unit. So much vibration that the regulator regularly falls off or fails!
That leaves the swing arm. Given the choice of hardly any suspension or a suspension system. Bring in weight issues, we want it to be light weight, then two big rubber in torsion units is more than adequate. At 50 odd years of age these units are at the end of their life. Pretty much like many other suspension set ups, actually. Since the rubber unit is the suspension, no bushings or other joints, shackles etc. you can but replace it. With new rubbers on the deflection on cornering is acceptable for the performance of the car. It is predictable. If you tune a Schmitt up and are looking at high speeds then you can buy a long available extra frame that helps locate the swingarm with a mounting on the chain case plate.
In fact most movement on the rear is deflection of the tyre used. That is why you use the best tyre you can buy on the back. Put a cheap trailer tyre on there, even if it is 6 ply, is not going to cut the mustard. Some have gone further and put in a wider section tyre with solid sides on 'panzer' wheels made of thicker steel, some wider.
I would put a Schmitts directional stability and maneuverability at speed far in excess of most of the competition, if all in optimum condition, but only with good tyres on. Where it is less good and eclipsed, is in slow handling, as the steering has a large turning circle and requires creep to turn without major effort on the steering bar. It is also a much harder ride overall and one very good reason some people reject it for the softer ride of other cars. Not everyone wants to drive like a loony.
As a separate test, look at the speed and ease with which you can get the engine out. The MOC have run races in the passed and I believe some ridiculously fast times were recorded, but 20 minutes as an easy target. Bonds step forward. The car remains mobile without the engine. Its well thought out.
-
[quote author=AndyL link=topic=4662.msg37179#msg37179 date=1415961059
I very much doubt that they used Titanium in the Messerschmitt, it's incredibly expensive, and they were budget cars after all. Plus it's complete overkill for the application.
[/quote]
That is why this steel bar is a bit of a mystery. All I know is it pigging tough. It has a sort of blue look to it when its clean. Bit like spring-steel.
-
Ahhh Now have fixed the spell check problem by adding English dictionaries to Firefox.
Thanks for the tip.
Jim. Apologies for moaning!
-
This is what you want, Bob.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/british-english-dictionary/?src=api
-
I prefer The Queen's English. Ooh! Get you mine Liebshen.
-
Looks even better on the car!
-
looking good , its almost like one from Two Gate's ( :-X ) ...
-
Regarding 2k paint flexibility, you can get a plasticizer additive which adds flexibility to the paint. It's used for spraying items like bumpers with will move/flex in use.
Mind you I always have concerns about spraying that stuff about, got lots of nasties in it.
-
Yep used it on my first Inter spray job. Lead to all kinds of problems, mainly to do with rubber components reacting and melting the paint.
-
The rubber on the wheel reacted with the paint?
-
No. Inters dont have a wheel, they have a solid alloy steering bar, great design but a hand freezer! Have you not seen my little blog? http://intermicrocar.blogspot.co.uk/ My paint sprayer recommended we use it in an attempt to reduce the risk of cracking on the body work as Inters are monocoque and the sides do drum a bit. I found that when ever rubber components were in contact with the paint i.e. window rubbers, grommets etc the paint behind them would just turn to goo. It may not have been the plasticizer that caused it but this was the theory at the time. My second and current Inter is also painted with 2k with no plasticizer and there has been no reaction with rubber at all. see bar pic.
-
Interesting.
I'm not a chemist, but plastics can have some peculiar reactions at times. In my line of work, I've observed cable degradation, chiefly the elastomer's used to insulate them breaking down as their installation time was extended way beyond their original specification. Some cables were liquefying, others were developing funny spots, like they had caught the pox or something. Very odd things.