RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on February 27, 2015, 04:09:16 PM
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i wonder if our photo guru Malcolm could improve this great picture at all ? I also wonder if any newer enthusiasts do not know of this little collection that got the whole world thinking small :) ( i cant work out which is the better picture to work with :-\ )
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And I wonder what forum readers think about the question, was our hobby better or worse BC [Before Christies]??? Or should I say BBW?
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I am to small minded to comment, Richard! It is a great picture. Yes, I think Chrusties was a watershed moment. I do not think it stopped an inevitable development, but it speeded the process. For me thinking about active use and participation it was distinctly better before. But I would not go so far as to blame BW, nor the sale. It happens to be a big event that times with when I feel the emphasis changed.
For me the best years were the late '80's and early '90's, a long old time ago. Things were building, the cars were cheap and I could count some 25 cars on the road within 20 miles of Faringdon. Now we might find 3 or 4. Its a different hobby.
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Perhaps we could all blame Edwin and Jean ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The question wasnt about apportioning blame, just was it better or worse. I feel much the same as Al.
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I remember going to that auction and coming away (after buying a £25 program) with my mouth open, saying my hobby would never be the same.
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I may be to young, or most probably not into Microcars when this Photo was taken. I'm taking from the comments that the photo was from a Christies auction.
So why was this the watershed moment for Microcars and what was the date?
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You will need a better quality original scan than taking what was printed in the catalog.
The first image is much better than the second (second is out of focus in places)
That being said, I scanned the image and then tweaked it a bit, but there is only so much that can be done with an image that was originally offset printed.
First image should be a better quality, second is an extreme close up of what the source material looks like with the halftone dots everywhere.
I know BW has a large print of this but it was made from the original photo, I'm not aware of any digital versions of this image available to the public anywhere and I don't think BW even has a digital version.
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I can not remember the exact date but 20 years ago and the trident went for £25k plus commission and the mark B bond for £7k+ when we were buying cars for hundreds and not thousands.
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6th March 1997.
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So why was this the watershed moment for Microcars
it was the first time that they had been properly introduced to "society" outside of the normal enthusiasts.
Never having seen anything like them prior and not having a clue to their actual "value", wealthy collectors fell over themselves to acquire them at record high prices.
Many people look at this singular event as the time the hobby began to transition from enthusiasts to collectors.
That being said, prices temporarily spiked after this auction, but soon dropped to more reasonable levels.
As more collectors world wide began to learn of the auction, the results and the cars, they continued to seek out more of the vehicles and the hobby opened up to a wider audience with deeper pockets.
Depending on your POV, there are both pros and cons to this.
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Very well summed up Jim.
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Agreed. My contention is that this would have happened anyway. The auction just served as the focus and bought the effect forward a few years.
Certainly, I agree that I left thinking that this was the end of the thing as a hobby too, as it was clear the collectors were to come in and clear out the good stuff. Up to a point that was OK, while there was a supply of iffy cars for the hobbyists to work up and replace those lost to limited activity. It put money into the market, so previously unobtainable spares would be made. Those wise enough could create a sustainable stack of spares from source, and cars, to use for a lifetime. Many have done so. The issue was that the supply of cars would run out and the prices rise out of the range where folk would use their restored cars. The collectors would end up owning the lions share of the cars, and no new blood would/could enter, unless very motivated or moneyed. Dead man's shoes, otherwise. I think that situation was reached some years ago.
Is that is what happened? So replacement machines were introduced broadening what is a 'microcar'. That did not really resolve the situation though, it changed that base activity, away from the true microcars, into something different. With the collectors feeding off it, and many a person buying up cars to sell a few years later at a mark up as well. More cars unused but 'available'.
Thus my activities as a pro trader, post auction, were going to be undermined by higher overheads and that hobbyist based business was dead. I could have become more professional, but I had a good run and did not want that sort of lifestyle. The economy crash looming, totally predictable other than actual timing, suggested the ideal time to get out.
The advantage of the rise in values is that I can now trade in my microcars against cars previously way beyond my budget and transfer to a hobby I would previously be unable to afford. For me it is low level motorsport and a local Classic Car Club that promotes many active events for general Classic Cars local, Nationally and in Europe. A vacuum left over the year with the de-munition of Microcar attendance over the last 7 years, and a failure to advance to better venues commensurate with the uplifted value of the cars in question. I am not the only person to have decided this is so and reacted positively to the options available. It is a moot point if the Microcar scene is suffering a significant loss of knowledge right now, as the time served and skilled move to other things offering greater retain in those owners eyes. Will spares availability retard, or fall to expensive independent specialists? Certainly there is great willingness to not keep cars original. That is a further turn off for some people. The attitude, bluntly, is been there, done that. Perversely some of those entering microcars now can say the exact same thing about low level motorsport as they do the opposite to me.
So the upshot is its a rather different activity and hobby, if that is what collection a 30 or 100 unused cars is. Its more diverse, liberal and moneyed. It is up to those people to now step up and offer something new to interest those now leaving to persuade them to stay, as in my opinion there is going to become a time where information, skills and hands on knowledge is going to be at a premium. Theory and knowing all the specs is one thing but making the car do those things is another. I only need to site Trienkels to support this notion. When I used my Trojan it would cruise at 50 mph, it would accelerate towards 60 mph and it was reliable. I do not see that reflected in today's cars. I was lucky to be taught by Mick Leeson and Basil. They knew how to make these things work. Kill about 5 people and I think that knowledge is dead in the UK!
Can you blame Bruce for that. No. Indeed he had a simple answer. Find a few gurus and encourage them and his collection improved over its bought in condition. Those people are a new centre of excellence, but they are not in the UK. From the outside it would seem Microcars is a more active scene in the USA, despite the issue of the vast distances, than the UK, which used to be pretty much Micro central with Germany. But the Americans do things their way.
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Richard, I can only repeat what Jim said, you need to start with a better quality image and a higher resolution scan to be able to improve the picture. It is possible to remove some of the noise and moiré pattern with software, but despite what they manage in films, you need a good image to begin with.
http://youtu.be/Vxq9yj2pVWk (http://youtu.be/Vxq9yj2pVWk)
I don't think the Christie's auction did much for the hobby other than perhaps increase the number of people with more than one car whilst at the same time reducing the number of people who could access them. Personally I think it devalued the ethos of the vehicles and reduced them from obscure, attractive and generally economical curiosities to rare and collectable toys. The only positive is that because of this I doubt that the overall number of microcars remaining on the planet has reduced significantly since the 90s. Just be nice if people would take them out of their boxes a bit more often.
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thanks again both , the scene was certainly gaining media attention from maybe the mid to late 80's onwards ?
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I disagree with you Richard most people in the eighties still looked with distain on the smaller BMW especially in the BMW car club if you turned up with one at their meetings you were either at the back or on the outskirts
Funny little car that did no good for the image of the time
The other cars like the Bond were treated as well your here but do we really want you
I do not think the auction above or the one recently did us enthusiasts any favours and I hope he is unable to buy any more cars
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I said it was gaining media attention , I did not say that mainstream BMW owners had, have or would accept them that's quite a different matter .
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A bit of attention all cars lumped together other cars had a section devoted to one make of car
i.e sports cars about as useless as they come but pages and pages about something with two seats and little else
How many articles can you find about Bonds and all the different marks in one article for instance
No Richard it was a token gesture
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calm down my friend , just observing things as I saw them :) I was there , it was my new hobby and they were being written about in the "serious " classic car mags , and the Sunday supplements etc. The changes had started ......
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I suppose we need to look at what drives someone to read a car-magazine article.
Perhaps it's desire - a wish that the reader, too, could have one of those. Countless boys and young men grew up wanting a sports car, and never got it. Perhaps in later life they could afford it, and satisfied the desire; in vastly greater numbers, they didn't, but still like to read about what they dreamed of.
Very few people dreamed of having an economy car, so there hasn't been quite the same desire to pander to. The people who in their later years bought microcars are the small band of people who DID have a microcar when young, or who have fond memories of such a car. To the rest, it's something they never wanted, so why would they want to read about it.
It is only in recent years that microcars have been desired as "oddities", rather than objects of male fantasy. Articles which pick up on the interest in oddity naturally span the range of microcars, to bring in more that is odd.
To me, the development of Bonds from one mark to another IS interesting, but (sadly) I don't suppose it is to the majority of car magazine readers.
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Your onto something there, Dave.
What effect did the few Goodwood meetings have that showed the cars off. The enormous crowds they pulled would attract those sorts of folk who want to be noticed. The sort of guy who could buy something odd to put in the corner behind the Lamborgini. Twats like that DJ. That sort of collector is competitive. Its that sort of buyer who will outbid at auction to win, at a cost of a weeks earnings or less. The car itself is not as important as its image, and that there is a reference book you can cross it off in, till you own all the set.
To a lesser degree restored cars at local shows only really get upstaged by Morgan trikes and such. Again the folk who want to be noticed can buy a lifestyle in the showground year. However a Microcar rally of 50 other equally odd cars means your not the centre of attraction. So why go miles to be a bit player ,when in 10 miles your a star? Some of those owners are not going to be microcar enthusiasts. They will be the ones currently not buying IC, for instance, as your the weirdo in the corner. The IC is where the bubblecar was in about 1982/4. French fridges, what, about 1990?
The mags reflect what people want to read about, not what they own. Indeed if there is a good mag presence in a vehicle I almost do not want one! The very reason to tune a Borgward, not a BMC or Ford. Its different, a challenge, but having done my homework, there is good concept and engineering with which to create something overlooked by most people. If it is successful, it will be banned, as that is what the normal answer is to folk who upset the known order of things. I have been through this several times, with ground effect radio control racing cars beating the best of the traditional ones and such like. And trading cars, of course.
That's why microcars were not historically welcomed at classic car events. They nicked the show. The bikers were more even handed. Now everyone wants a slice of the action, but normally not without a price tag - see Top Gear filming, Gaydon Rallies etc etc. Well sorry, if you did not want to know me when I was unfashionable, you are not taking my independence of action just because I am now, sunshine. No, I own the right to do my best for my interest and cars, its not for rent to possers with agendas. Look at the continual theft of concept and design on line. These people need to get out more and do some original work. However its easier to copy something discovered by someone else, especially if you can convince folk its your idea.
I like the real micronauts as they are a group of pretty independent awkward folk who do not do what they are told. There still out there, thank god.
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meanwhile in Essex:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-31668640 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-31668640)
egg prices will never be the same after someone pays £480 for ONE EGG!
Egg enthusiasts will look back on this day and remember where they were during this watershed moment.
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Great story! We do things differently here in Essex!
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Great story! We do things differently here in Essex!
Yes, you pay crazy prices for eggs!
But they probably bought it to go with their henway.
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Or is it the county of 'S eggs'.
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I had a feeling this would lead to some yoke cracking! That is a lot of money to shell out though for one egg.
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Come on Steve Fisk !!! I posted a photo spread of your families collection on the forum today , you have been on and not commented on the photo did you not see it ? :)
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Where did you post the Fisk collection? I can see them.
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You can or you can't Bob ? Anyhow the centre spread of my magazine selection , the word microcosm , features the 6 car collection of the Fisk family and I had thought the young boy to be Steve himself but it must be a brother or friend of the family - either way I was waiting for someone to spot it :) all my efforts in vain ;)
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Sorry for the typo, I meant I cant see it. Still cant. What am I missing here?
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Still cant. What am I missing here?
I'm confused, too. What did you post, Richard, and where?
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A tangent that has popped into the twilight zone, I think. Always thought that would be a good name for an appropriately designed Bubblecar, The Tangent. Probably politically incorrect now.
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well its not me this time ;D. The Fisk Family Collection 1994 and Steve is pictured , middle of three sons aged 10 , in the Scootacar . The Steve quoted in the article is in fact our Steves dad
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Earlier on a point was made that knowledge is becoming scarcer and held only by a few who aren't getting any younger.
My thoughts are that if you want knowledge to continue then you have to pass it on, be it by mentoring on a 1:1 basis or putting it down in black and white.
That requires a certain degree of effort, some will make it, but many won't, or are reluctant to release information like it's some sort of state secret. The latter seems to be a peculiarly British mentality, I've witnessed it in many specialized interests and it can bring about the demise of societies, as members fall off the perch. I can understand it a little more if someone is making a living from such expertise, but do find it a little hard to fathom when it's just a hobby.
Value wise I think many micro cars have now reached the point where prices are unlikely to rise further.
Personally I much prefer lower values, as I'm an enthusiast not an investor. High values just make the car more nickable and push up the price of replacement parts- removes the joy in what should be a fun hobby.
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Sorry, only babs in arms get spoon fed. Its not my responsibility to give my time and knowledge away free to those who cannot be bothered to make an effort to source and invest in information they need to maintain their hobby. There damned lucky to have the clubs we started for them to get them off the ground. Seem tpo be making something of an arse of that with very few new faces coming to the for. Talk about OBEs, Streuth!
The information is here for those who make the effort. Once interest is elsewhere there is not time to wipe newbies bottoms. These folk have other targets to achieve and the batten is passed.
Value wise, I agree, time to exit stage left, therefore. Campervan man and his wealthy chums win. I retain the right to keep a small collection and the spares stashed to run them. If they want to do stuff I do not, go ahead, and good luck. Occasionally I might appear when something like a National appears that warrents a visit, like this year I think. Sadly the opportunity to grab the attention of the South Coast mob, as notified, was missed at the NEC, so they are not going. I don't make the rules up.
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I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ on that one.
Clubs were formed to pool knowledge and funds to get spares reproduced. The internet is changing much of that, as spares can be sourced all over the world and knowledge can be shared online easily and much better than via more traditional means e.g. magazines.
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Indeed so.
And yes, it was never easier to look for information. But I notice that many sites have removed data from free access, as it was being abused, A series tuning info for instance, and the fact it was available meant that the struggle to gain the data was minimal, and thus it was not appreciated for the investment in knowledge, and club, put in. Better to make people pay their dues to respect the access to information. It sorts out those who are serious and will actually converse with the source, ask the right questions and are clearly 'the right stuff'.
The alternative is to use the Wikifacts, which is a ill defined research posted, and often contains incorrect information. If you do not bother to cross reference, your derailed. So the internet is a good starting place, but I find it is normal procedure to then follow that with personal contact, visits or attending a suitable meeting.
Case in point. I am forever being asked to lone special tools or fix cars. Depending on case, I offer the option of coming here to get things done or not. Hardly anyone follows that up as it inconveniences them. Well there is a surprise. To all those who still have my tools from way back, in some cases, it would be nice to have them back!
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I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ on that one.
Clubs were formed to pool knowledge and funds to get spares reproduced. The internet is changing much of that, as spares can be sourced all over the world and knowledge can be shared online easily and much better than via more traditional means e.g. magazines.
Shame there is not a 'Like' button on here, as on Facebook :)
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Indeed so.
And yes, it was never easier to look for information. But I notice that many sites have removed data from free access, as it was being abused, A series tuning info for instance, and the fact it was available meant that the struggle to gain the data was minimal, and thus it was not appreciated for the investment in knowledge, and club, put in. Better to make people pay their dues to respect the access to information. It sorts out those who are serious and will actually converse with the source, ask the right questions and are clearly 'the right stuff'.
The alternative is to use the Wikifacts, which is a ill defined research posted, and often contains incorrect information. If you do not bother to cross reference, your derailed. So the internet is a good starting place, but I find it is normal procedure to then follow that with personal contact, visits or attending a suitable meeting.
Case in point. I am forever being asked to lone special tools or fix cars. Depending on case, I offer the option of coming here to get things done or not. Hardly anyone follows that up as it inconveniences them. Well there is a surprise. To all those who still have my tools from way back, in some cases, it would be nice to have them back!
And perhaps an 'unlike' button :)