RUMCars Forum
General Category => Unusual Microcar Discussion => Topic started by: richard on April 19, 2015, 05:59:12 PM
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unable to even reach the Gordon I have had some fun in the sun :) I have roof rail parts from AT LEAST two cars ( not necessarily Bond D )so the idea was to try and assemble what I could of the bits to resemble one set . I know there is at least one hood rail missing which cannot help , but by grinding and drilling rivets I came up with something that resembles the basis of one set .I had started by painting one set blue and one set white and leaving a few bits plain so that I knew what was what ;) I know at the end of it all that all the steelwork will be scrap as it rotten but at least I will have something to copy in new steel :)
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Good idea to colour code the parts, always to know exactly what you started from in case you ever need to go back for reference.
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yep that was the idea Marcus , and lots of photos ;) there are the two main cross hood rails and a load of different steels with inward ,outward,backward and forward bends - all great fun :)
I know Malcolm has just completed a lovely Bond D restoration but someone else was too , who was it ? and does anyone have any photos to compare . On the Bond G the two main hood rails are of different heights so that when folded down one is within the curve of the other . I think these D ones are the same height as each other but am not sure .
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Hope these pictures of D tourer hoods might help a little.
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Rails only would be better ? Thanks
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I just realised I only posted one of the two pics - never taken any detail ones as obviously a tourer hood is quite different to mine.
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Quite different hmmm ? It's mounted on the same points and reaches the same screen at the front so I would have thought the second , rear rail must have longer legs to give height further back but otherwise be the same ? It's funny with my projects bruetsch Pfeil, Bond A , Gordon and now Bond D people must have been there before but. There is never any note taken for the future . Wouldn't it just be easier if we made notes for others - in my case I will try and remedy this :) when I have finalised a set of rotten bits I will replicate it and give the old one back to the club so that others can us it in future .But these are the challenges I enjoy but take a lot of time to sort out
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re- hood frame , the folding/bendy bits differs above the side screen , as I used the family one to made do , but as the hood as been on some 40 years its now took a set , its not much but the hood canopy has a 'V' (don't know rag trade name !) sewn in to keep it in shape . The family frame can be modified to fit the 2 seater (wont call it a tourer cos' Bonds didn't ) , don't alter unless you have the hood first ?
will post some photos .
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thanks very much your help appreciated :)
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some hood frame picky's , also where the dart (that's the rag trade name !!!) is maybe I did right by leaving alone as for when I was a Morecambe 2002/3 vintage there was a couple of cars that had hoods with the sewing around the frame/dart area looking worse for use .
from the photo's you can judge how far the 2 and family frame differs .
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Hi again made a few more bits up , pics to follow, could you tell me when the hood is down does one hood rail fit within the curve of the other or do they fold down on top ? Exactly or ..... And the front rail must have arms coming back to meet the rest how long at the " arms " coming back from the front rail - mine must be broken off . All of this only if you could manage some time . Thanks again
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I'll drag the car out in a day or so and do some pictures , never thought about mine been as per the book :o - mainly it worked , went up and down and kept the rain off ;D
good luck with your project .. Alan
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well on a glorious Bank Holiday Monday I had another go at assembling some of the roof pieces , all cobbled together to copy in new steel one day :) this is where I got to -
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when upended there was even less left of the steel reinforcers , to the ally floor , than I thought . In one place as the main floor support had rotted away it had been "strengthened " with wood ;D and I may end up having to replace the floor even , eeks
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It's always difficult to tell from photos, but your floor looks a lot more solid than mine was. Think that flexitor might be past it though.
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Did you replace your floor Malcom? Well mine has quite a few holes , some largish , now and punching out a rivet brings a half inch hole
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rain stopped play for the photo's !
(a coat of hammerite on the flexitors should tidy them up !!! :-X )
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If this rain keeps up , we will probably all be strapping wood under our cars to keep them afloat :) bringing two threads together :)
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Aluminium+steel+moisture= battery.
All the parts that have given me most grief on my Isetta to date have been aluminium on steel.
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I did replace it on mine, but I have seen others where plates have been added to fill the holes - either riveted in or welded. Like rusty holes in steel, it's a question of getting rid of the badly corroded bits and working back till you come to sound material. Mine simply didn't have enough sound material left.
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Thanks did you do the job as per Bond tips or by drilling out all 200 odd rivets ?
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nice and sunny , had the top down and went of on a imaginative stationary tour over the N Yorks moors (never left the back street 8))
some photos of the hood down , the frame sits on top of itself , and my frame is wing nut to the bracket on the car for easy removal - (the cotton/string stops the rattle !) , the male bracket on the windscreen frame , the hood fastening nut , also don't forget to have good overlap at windscreen or you'll get wet ;D ...
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the pipe lagging on the frame stops it chattering on the bodywork beading ,
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Thank you again , wing nuts to frame good idea . Need to buy wing bolts too . I am still puzzling over how much rail there is going backwards from the front rail and is it part of that front rail , and do the frame hoop rails sit exactly on top of each other when folded down or is one within the curve of the other and if so which . Answers on a postcard cheers rich love the window stickers by the way
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I like that wing nuts idea plas man, so simple, but I've not seen it on any other cars.
To answer Richard about the floor, I'd forgotten about that alternative in Bond tips, I drilled out the 200 odd rivets (or at least the ones that were left) and put in a new floor and a new foot board/scuttle. The original floor had lots of holes from electrolytic reaction, and had a split on the drivers side between the floor and the side which had been crudely repaired with plates bolted on with steel 8BA nuts and bolts and a few pop rivets all of which had then added more holes and damage from electrolytic reaction. Where the two steel cross members had disintegrated (the family has a second lateral cross member behind the flexitors), they'd been replaced by a bit of c section aluminium that was very strong, but weighed about a ton and this had gradually torn along some of the holes where the steel was originally bolted to the floor. The scuttle had split along the fold where it drops down from the horizontal when one of the supporting bulkhead angles had broken away from the bulkhead and never been fixed.
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All a great help thanks both , these type of old cars are a very different prospect from an off the shelf Isetta , Messerschmitt etc. aren't they :) very DIY
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hope i did the right thing but they look like the job , do you just bash em with a hammer ? this seller also has 1,500 odd items for sale many of them very old stock nails ,screws even many sizes in imperial grub screws - there must be a use for these somewhere
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260854067856?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_954wt_1037
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Hopefully you picked alloy rivets, not the steel ones in the link! You really need two people for cold riveting unless you've got very long arms or can put an immovable object under the head of a flat head rivet (not always very practical and the ones you're replacing are probably round head rivets). You need the right size rivet set, or for round head rivets, a rivet snap and set.
e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rivet-Set-Up-3-16-Tinmen-s-Setup-Octagon-Steel-Sheffield-Made-/251930115993? (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rivet-Set-Up-3-16-Tinmen-s-Setup-Octagon-Steel-Sheffield-Made-/251930115993?)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-punch-tool-3-16-dia-for-Solid-Rivets-Priory-103A-3-16-Single-LandRover-/321205802134? (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-punch-tool-3-16-dia-for-Solid-Rivets-Priory-103A-3-16-Single-LandRover-/321205802134?)
The hole also needs to be precisely the right size for the rivet and the rivet needs to be the right length for the job, with just the right clinch allowance. I found getting the right diameter rivets at a reasonable price usually meant buying large quantities of long rivets and then cutting them down to the right length.
This is a good basic guide to the process.
http://www.technologystudent.com/joints/rivet2.htm (http://www.technologystudent.com/joints/rivet2.htm)
You can see why people use pop rivets!
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I'd recommend getting a comfy pair of ear defenders as well!
Here's a chart of suggested clinch allowance. If the rivet is too long, it's irritatingly easy to bend the shaft without getting the material properly clinched together, if its too short, you don't have enough material to form a proper head on the plain end to hold the material in place.
http://www.hansonrivet.com/commercial-solid-rivets.htm (http://www.hansonrivet.com/commercial-solid-rivets.htm)
Once you and your assistant have done the first 50 or so, it's easy.
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Ah don't get riveting the aluminium floor , for which pop rivets are surely the only practical solution , with the 8 steel rivets that I needed to make up the roof rails . Have just looked at all that interesting info with flat headed steel rivets it would be very different though . Interesting to use a piece of paper between the components when riveting if a moveable joint is required , as in the folding roof hmmm thanks . Now how do you do flat head steel ones :) there must be a bit on them
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Well, for anyone considering replacing the floor, you need to use much larger blind rivets (or several more - I was told something like 5 to 3) to replace the cold rivets to maintain the same strength in the join. Like plas man. my hood frame has nuts and bolts with the ends peened over rather than rivets. What you really need is something like an anvil to support the head while you set and form the other end - I never tried setting a solid steel rivet, but even large alloy ones need quite a thump. Have a few practice goes before you try the real thing.
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back to the floor , I have never experienced corrosion of alloy/steel - even when using the D in pre marital days and the G as the family came along , remember I only live within 1/4 mile from the sea front and get a lot of salt air , when the D was re-built I replaced the rear steel bits using full length galvanised [ channel this was pop riveted to the floor with a product called Sega Mastic sandwiched between . Also the underside has always been well coated with Waxoyl , their own underseal with Waxoyl painted on top annually .
within next days will take the ruler/tape to the hood frame .
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You won't get corrosion if the metals are kept separated by either a sealant or oil coating.
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I think it's a combination of that little bit of care and maintenance at the right time over the years and robust repairs when they were needed, not sure many Bonds got that sort of treatment in the 1960s and beyond. Mine had something like Waxoyl painted over the bottom at least once in it's life, but the damage suggests it was applied a little bit late in the day, bit like painting over rust patches on steel and hoping if you can't see them they'll go away.
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One of the best tutorials I've ever seen on metalworking is by Dave Gardner. He did a series in Practical Classics years ago, and I remembered it because the techniques he showed didn't use fancy tools, but the results were excellent. When I saw he'd done a DVD, I got it. http://metalshapingzone.com/
One of the things he shown on the DVD is making a new door skin for an Aston Martin. These were aluminium on skin on a steel frame, and the originals had corroded where the two metals met. He explains a lack of sealant caused this.
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Well I do hope those that thought it was another boring Bond topic from Richard have stuck with it . Very useful and informative and from my point of view is what the historical side of the forum excels at , Al is invaluable on technical matters . Great stuff for the oldies ;) , cars I mean :)
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Hi Richard, sent you a message - not sure if it was sent or not? I find this site hard to use - difficult to post pics, check sent messages etc....( or is it just me??).
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No, it's not just you, bc: I can get to messages I've received, but have never managed to find out how to get to those that I've sent, when I need to re-read them!
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Sounds like you need to modify the message preferences.
Click on messages. Then click on 'preferences', then in the drop down box 'change settings'. Click the box where it says save a copy of messages to my sent folder.
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Ah, that makes sense. Thank you, Andy!
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a rare free afternoon brought a little more progress on the Bond D . Final removal of the remaining bits of floor strengtheners showed that they had done anything but to the rear floor ................. I eventually managed to grind off all the seized bolts and then didnt know where i was going next
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It looks like the major corrosion is limited to the rear of the pan.
Could you not just have a rear section from the rear arms back tig welded in? Would save a lot of rivetting, and a competent welder should be able to minimize any shrinkage distortion from the welding process.
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been there , not as bad as it looks :-[ , on replacement go full length of the car floor it will help support the seat area and prevent floor to side's splitting .
with the price of alloy scrap dont leave it there too long , or scrappy will have it away >:(
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Your floor does looks plenty solid enough to patch up. Car looks like it's auditioning for the next Transformers movie in the second picture.
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To this , now our dinner guests have departed ,my wife Karen adds, "transformers - robots in disguise " whatever that means ? The position of the car shows what happens when you remove all the fixing bolts and the front end is only supported by a wiring harness
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59QeKkjishs
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ah ! thanks ( I think :) )
In my quest for originality I shall of course wish to replace like with like on the Bond D - but I have never before come across fuses exactly like those fitted by the previous owner;
Q. should I keep trying to find these single stranded fuses :D
confused of Wirral ;D
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https://youtu.be/Cd11Qkq8PtY?t=14s (https://youtu.be/Cd11Qkq8PtY?t=14s)
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Nice one ; ) I had a feeling eider you or bob would have something to add :)
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Q. should I keep trying to find these single stranded fuses
Those are someone's nasty attempt to replace the original fuses - which should of course be a match trimmed to length which then has the silver paper from a packet of Capstan Navy Cut cigarettes wrapped around it.
The silver paper from other cigarette brands works just as well, though obviously you would lose points when judged at a Bond Owner's Club Concours event for having incorrect parts fitted.....
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Q. should I keep trying to find these single stranded fuses
Those are someone's nasty attempt to replace the original fuses - which should of course be a match trimmed to length which then has the silver paper from a packet of Capstan Navy Cut cigarettes wrapped around it.
You could probably use a side panel or one of the more malleable parts off the Gordon if nothing else is available.
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For early fly by wire just use a tooth filling. Oooohahooo, It tingles. Did you Macaque your pants today? Preferable, in my opinion, to the drafters Colgate ring of confidence.
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fuse's !!! , wot's up with the harness smoking , and a quick repair job with the 'blackly' tape :D
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Wouldn't it be easier to solder in a panel pin across the joint. You get lots for the price of a fuse. ;D
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(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/angibb/wiring-harness-smoke-1.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/angibb/media/wiring-harness-smoke-1.jpg.html)
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Brilliant :)