Buying by accident - Larmar and Scootacar

[Stuart Cyphus]

Alan, I have been told the Lamar is one that is already on the Register.  Is this correct and if so what is the Reg. and Chasis number or the Rum.No. if you have it.  Jean

 Alan's one has never been on the Register alas. In fact it was only when Alan rolled up with it the other day that I was even able to make a positive entry for it on the ICR Mainfile despite knowing of it for about five/six years. I'll leave it to Alan rather than me to quote the chassis number, seeing as it's his car, but I will boast that I've now had a good look round Alan's one (my first actual poke of a Larmar Car in fact) and the ICR is impressed.  The Larmar's in Brutsch-Freak's post are (top) JNC 576, resident at Bruce Weiner's Wonderland, & (bottom) FMO 106, the ex Mike Hodgeson car which resurfaced just recently. Those are the two cars on the RUM register, whilst the fourth Larmar Car is the Scottish one; YJ 9320.

[Bob Purton]

Morning Stuart. I shall ask a silly question and will probably get a ......  but why put Alans mechanical Larmar car on the ICR when its not one? Doesnt it need to go on the RCR?

[Big Al]

Just to annoy you all I already owned Bruce's car, JNC 576. I found it in Cumbria where it ended up after being bought from Wales. It was an Invalid Carriage. Dave Hambleton bought it from me and sold it to Bruce at Story Rally - yep Otto disliked this drift into the event being a market for American/Canadian Collectors. One reason the event ceased I think though a lot more crap happened later.

I have seen FMO 106 in the Mike Hodeson days. If the owner wishes to get in touch we can compare notes if he is going to re restore the car. YJ 9320 I know nigh on nothing about but likewise I am happy to talk Larmar with its owner. I believe there is another Larmar out there but have yet to chase it down. There are alledged to be two more in private ownership, one of which might be a prototype. I might drop these fellows a note.

My car I think is a late one as it has a high headlight and is a car. It is Chassis A2/CJ32/248 with engine ZC10 878 but I have no real data on which to base this assumption. I also do not have the registration number but I need to check out some old pics to see if the plates were there. I think there are still several parts to be collected and a return visit to source is planned. I have no plans to sell the car, however it will have to wait for restoration for the moment as I have a load of work in hand. The car came without paperwork. Again I do not recall if I had any 20 years ago the first time I owned it!

[Stuart Cyphus]

 why put Alans mechanical Larmar car on the ICR when its not one? Doesnt it need to go on the RCR?

 Although the Larmar Car was announced & road-tested by the able-bodied car magazines in 1947-48, and its avertising always extolling the "economy car" vitues as well the Larmar's primary reason for being as an invalid carriage, I personally belive that ALL Larmar's were originally sold as invalid carriages, regardless of the presence of any foot controls in some examples: (Rember, there are many disabilities out there which will not affect the legs in any way.) There was a huge row throughout the Larmar's production life between Larmar Enginnering & HM Customs & Excise with Customs proclaiming that, as it was being abvertised as a car as well as an invalid carriage, they would treat it as a car full stop, thus it was subject to full road taxation & Purchase Tax etc. Larmar Enginnering on the other hand, quoted in a Magic Carpet Magazine of 1950, that: So-far we have been unable to satisfy the economy-minded motorist with our Car due to the on-going negociations with HM Customs & Excise" To me that indicates that none were ever sold new to an able-bodied person. Of course the original owner could always sell his car on to an able-bodied person at a later date.   

 The Larmar Car was designed & intended right from the start to be an invalid carriage, regardless of advertised intentions once it got into production, & with the above paragraph taken into account, the ICR covers the Larmar with open arms. 

[Bob Purton]

Thanks for that Stuart. Interesting. I can see your point, if I as an able bodied person were in the market for a new car back then a Larmar would have been the last on the list! I find them interesting but at the same time grotesque.

[Bob Purton]

Als Mk2 Scootacar.

[Big Al]

[[/quote]

 Although the Larmar Car was announced & road-tested by the able-bodied car magazines in 1947-48, and its advertising always extolling the "economy car" virtues as well the Larmar's primary reason for being as an invalid carriage, I personally be live that ALL Larmar's were originally sold as invalid carriages, regardless of the presence of any foot controls in some examples: (Rember, there are many disabilities out there which will not affect the legs in any way.) There was a huge row throughout the Larmar's production life between Larmar Engineering & HM Customs & Excise with Customs proclaiming that, as it was being advertised as a car as well as an invalid carriage, they would treat it as a car full stop, thus it was subject to full road taxation & Purchase Tax etc. Larmar Engineering on the other hand, quoted in a Magic Carpet Magazine of 1950, that: So-far we have been unable to satisfy the economy-minded motorist with our Car due to the ongoing negotiations with HM Customs & Excise" To me that indicates that none were ever sold new to an able-bodied person.   

 The Larmar Car was designed & intended right from the start to be an invalid carriage, regardless of advertised intentions once it got into production, & with the above paragraph taken into account, the ICR covers the Larmar with open arms. 
[/quote]

That is a bit of a leap in logic for me to then go on to state no Larmar was sold as a car. There is no definitive proof it would seem. The fact that the production was treated as a car for taxation would suggest the opposite as why buy the invalid version. The car would be a version that could be driven by Husband and Wife despite a disability with an adaption kit fitted. Non invalids are not all licenced to drive an Invalid Carriage and insurance could have been an issue. Technically it is not an Invalid Carriage and it would have a small but clear marketplace as shared transport for weirdos. The car version requires all limbs to use it properly and this one is and always has been a car whereas JNC has not and would be an IC for driving purposes before it was altered. I have owned a Goggo adapted for a one armed owner complete with steering jockey wheel, that was not an invalid carriage and classed and taxed as a car.  I accept that the root of the Larmar is in the IC world but this one is a car and I suspect rare. Still it is splitting hairs really but for the accuracy it needs to be recorded as such.

[adi]

Re the Scootacar stuff.

Me and someone else on here have done quiet alot of research into what actually happened with Scootacars. It seems, although people dont seem to like this idea, their production line was a little messy sometimes. Original specimens have been documented with all sorts of stuff bolted to them. The 11e and 9e engine share many common parts, and its possible to 'scootacarize' a 11e by fitting a 9e box casing with speedo drive. In fact, on at least one car, it seems almost certain that Scootacar themselves did that when it was brought in because the owner blew the 9e up. These villiers engines are kind of like VW type one engine, as in, the engine number only really tells you the origin of the part that the number is stamped on. 9e and 11e from what i understand are pretty vague terms, and pick-and-mix engines are common, with a possibility of it being done by the manufacturer themselves or their authorized agents in a few cases.

Also, Scoots exist with 'incorrect' lamps and fittings. People often argue that they may have been retrofitted, but the original bits have different mounting screws/hole pattern, and there were no holes in the shell other then for the 'wrong' lights, which means that the car was always like that.

So, my conclusion was (and this was only my conclusion, other opinions are available) that if you see a Scoot with something else bolted to it thats not listed in the factory literature, there is a high chance that it was there from day one. The Scoot, being British, suffered from the usual problems plaguing the British car industry unfortunately, and occasionally there were 'slight design deviations' (''we didnt have no tail light guv', so we bolted some Triumph ones to todays batch'').  

By the way, i like your accidental purchases very much! Like all true accidental purchases, they are great.

[Big Al]

I have independently been coming to much the same conclusions, Adi. When pressed the guardians of what will or will not be fitted to various cars are unable to provide hard evidence for their case. The answer therefore lies in close examination of the car itself for evidence. Better still if the history of the car is known and definitely better if the car is unmolested by bad restorers who have mucked everything around perhaps to the incorrect but expressed preferred specification. I have been through this with Messerschmitts. The classic KR201 thing. They are all red with snakeskin interiors and early lights. Correct save for the late none snakeskin pink ones in America, the black ones, etc. etc. Of course part of the problem is the information is out there but for some reason it does not get placed where it can be researched simply allowing the uninformed to create a false history, which eventually becomes fact and passed on in all good faith. This is why I value original cars over anything restored. 95% of restored cars are, in fact, incorrect if you get technical.
Illistration - Just been talking to a guy with a mate who has an Alvis TD21. Very expensive restoration but only when an expert looked did anyone notice that the rear inner arch spats were missing! Seems they were so rusty before the car was done it was not recognised as a panel!

[adi]

One interasting observation.

One Scootacar that i know very well was technically never actually road legal.

It had bubble glass rear lights, such as those found on land rovers etc. They are just a red bubble with a double filament bulb. They have NO number plate illumination window! So, technically, they were illegal, since cars need to illuminate the plate.

Everyone told me they were a later bodge. However, i later found out, the standard Scootacar lights had a totally different hole pattern for the mounting bolts.

So, i took the bubble lights off, expecting to find the older, wider hole pattern under them. But, no, nothing. Just the two holes to mount the bubble lights. So, either the car was re-shelled (which i very very much doubt), or it came from the factory like that!

Which means, that, in theory, it spent about 10 yrs driving illegally. Of course, i doubt anyone noticed or cared, but you know what i mean, its an interesting novelty.

It also had a glass fiber dash, which was supposed to have been metal, yet since all of its life is accounted for, and it spent 10 yrs as a daily driver and then 30 or so sitting somewhere, then who replaced the dash? Could it have come out of the factory like that? Surely not  .

I think, to be honest, Scootacar production was more of a mess then British Layland/BMC/Austin Rover production.

[Bob Purton]

Hi Adi. I don't know if I missed your point here but all three Mk1's that I owned had glass fiber dash boards. The use of odd parts because they run out that week is not confined to the British motor industry either, I have a 1957 KR200 with a strange pattern pair of tail lights, when I was restoring the car I was about to chuck them because they were not the same as everyone else's. Glad I didn't though because a leading light in the MOC told me that a whole batch of cars in 57 came out of the factory with these lights. The car still wears them with pride! Was BMC production a mess? All the old mini's I used to drive had exactly the same parts on them. Or were you referring to British Leyland quality control which was non existent in later years?

[P50]

You my be right regarding the Lucas back lights.

Mk1's had fibreglass dashes.  Plus regarding your old cars case it must have had a new engine as it would not have left the works with a speedo/cable and nothing to screw it to.

Scootacar's are quite horrid compared to a KR.  But very endearing. I love their shape (only Mk1). But they rattle, crash over bumps,deadly on fast bends and smoke like a docker.  But they can stop.

I mot'd both cars last week.  KR covered 2.5k miles.  Scoot done 197.  So to use modern American parlance "you do the math"...

(Pic of mine in Wapping a few years ago taken on a crappy phone)

[Big Al]

'Now that is what I call a Wapping' - Will Smith

Scootacar M2 I had handled really well. Not as well as a KR200 but the fact it stopped meant you could go for it. In A to B it was nigh on a match for a 'Schmitt. Very underated car in my opinion. The styling was its problem and now its saving grace. Main grumble is noise. The 'Schmitt is a hard act to beat.

I have seen your old car, Adi. It is a good restoration project as, again, it has not been 'restored'. One can make much of the evidence to get the car rebuilt the way it would have been. Part of the fun I find is in working out and sourceing parts for these rarer cars. That takes patience, not my strong point but as I have loads of projects in hand it is not a problem.

BMC were a mess. They sold cars for less than it cost to make them due to rediculious management practice! Mini loosing them £45 a car, not suprising it sold so well against the competition really. What price a Schmitt then? The factory managed to produce three door cars, two doors one side and one the other, without anyone 'noticing' till it left the production line. What ever car was in production locally at Cowley or Abingdon you could by the spares on the black market as it walked out of the factory. They specialised in 'Friday' models which had a terrable effect on sales but the source never seemed to get sorted at the factory. The night shift always worked till it produced a union agreed quota and then stopped as they did not want the day shift to work to hard and ignored the halts to management interferance during the day. It was no surprise that BMC and its following holding companies all failed as the management never really got control until Edwards was put in to chop the rot by Thatcher - to late. My Dad knew Percy Plant who was made MD of the place during this period and he said it was one of the biggest messes he ever got put in charge of and he was a lifetime business troubleshooter.
Scootacar production was very limited and buying power likewise. They had every excuse to have changes in fittings. BMC managed to produce well concieved cars very badly. My vote goes to Hunslett for trying.

[P50]

I used to live in Wapping.  Took the P50 west over the cobbles, sneaked through StKatherines Dock and went for a ride over Tower Bridge to Rotherhithe then Bermondsey.

In '06.  In fact that's the last time it was driven on an English road as it crapped out at Peels to Peel and has sat since in disgrace.  Fear not it is being restored shortly so both my Peels will be roadfit this year. 

As for a Deluxe's handling, why is it better than a Mk1?  They both have no dampers and minimal suspension travel?  Evil cars if you ask me!  Mind you mine's on nasty chinese rubber and will have a new set of Michelin C's on shortly. I have heard Scoots handle though on reputable rubber.

One last thought on Leyland. They utterly deserved to die.  Marinas even (after the dealer PDI) left the line having a drum on the N/S and a disc on the O/S then delivered to punters. Sadly sums up the UK of late. I intend to set up a second overseas base away from this khazi of a country at some point.   Scootacars etc are eccentric jewels to be savoured.  Leyland products simply excreta.  TR6, V12 E type, Stag or not.   Utter utter rubbish. 

[marcus]

I used to live in Wapping.  Took the P50 west over the cobbles, sneaked through StKatherines Dock and went for a ride over Tower Bridge to Rotherhithe then Bermondsey.

So why did you not pay a visit?

Your pic in Wapping looks to be just E of St K's Dock, where I got an even fuzzier pic of my Trojan. I was driving west towards the dock and spotted a group of people in 18th century period dress with tricorn hats, so I stopped and asked them to pose for a pic which they happily did.