Author Topic: Messerschmitt Monocoque  (Read 6720 times)

Big Al

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Messerschmitt Monocoque
« on: July 02, 2010, 09:40:21 AM »
  Touching on the Freeway comment about virtually new Schmitts being available is timely. After waiting for some panels for ages and getting Kevin the welder ready and primed Annex Man and myself helped Kevin use the Monocoque jig that has been made to create the first monocoque out of it made entirely from new metal panels and tubes.

  It is a logical extension of use for the jig which was made for repairing old frames with new panels. Having proved it was correct and producing several reliably accurate monocoques it was not much stretch of logic to try a set of new parts in it. The result has been better than we hoped.
  On measuring up cars for the jig it becomes quickly apparent that Messerschmitts have a suprising degree of variations in the location of their structural and mounting points. This would account for why swapping parts can be difficult as the fit is not as good as you might expect, each car having an element of hand building in its construction. Also it explains why each car drives differently to the others. Clearly some cars are going to be better balanced, steer better etc as the small variance does matter. It has been a matter of record that there are some cars that really do not be have as well as others on the road despite efforts to tune the chassis.
  On finishing the monocoque after two days work Kevin measured it across the angles for accuracy. It is bung perfect. The monocoque we were copying was a mint original '60's issue example. It was not square, being out in one dimension by .5mm and the other .2mm, in this case. So we know we are square. There are a few tweaks to do in the build up process to prevent problems. But in general the thing went together well. We will have it on show at Bath and listen to constructive criticism. This might alter the way the thing is stitched together etc. though it looks good to me.
  There is a requirement for 5 more new monocoques between us to be produced without money changing hand which will then be run out of the jig and that should result in 5 currently incomplete 'Schmitt kits becoming cars. I am not sure what happens beyond that as to sell the monocoques will create a liability issue I am not going to take on. An answer might be found as I think the availability of a new monocoque might well be of interest to a few folk. I know Oliver H does them but these are already in Britain and look like being a more economical option because of it. I will be doing another 5 myself over the next few years to restore the growlers I have stashed in one of my sheds and clear them away so I can retain my collection of low milage/original Schmitts in some space and finance the stabilisation of those cars, most of which I do not want to restore outright as many might. So I will not be relinquishing the jig in the immediate future as it is part of my project to sort out Schmitts in hand.

Given the number of folk wanting Schmitts and the availability of various options of panels in steel and GRP, not least from Andy Carter, and the option of reshelling a Tri Tech there could be a demand for the use of the jig. The problem then becomes registrations. My cars are real and I have the IDs. Rebuilding a pile of bits of misc Schmitts into one, that gets an age related. When we get onto GRP based cars it starts getting iffy and add a twist and go engine and the water is deep. So there are issues beyond the construction itself. No doubt there will be those who will be against the whole idea and others on middle ground.
Be interested to see if there is feedback from a somewhat neutral site, in terms of Schmitts.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

P50

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 01:19:35 PM »
I am lucky having a totally rust free tub.  Which is rare for a UK cabriolet.

However a tub is not the whole story.  The tub is effectively four flatish panels fitted to two down tubes.  One having the all important i.d.

However if you have an utter filthbox that's been in a field for 30 years then one will require a nose/door and cowl.  So unless you use GRP surely the buck stops at that point?

The monocoque is certainly a prgressive move forwards but unlike MG's/Triumph's one rarely sees a Schmitt for resto.
 
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Bob Purton

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 02:22:10 PM »
You missed out the important bit Perry, the heavy box section bit at the front that all the suspension/ running gear/nosecone attaches. I would think that isn't a particularly easy part to fabricate. There must be a lot of dismantled schmitts that people have found, tubs rotted away,  striped them down for spares, discarded the tubs and just need a new tub to build up a car. Enter Mr H and hey presto! Not quite that easy I know. Come to think of it Parts mart really struggled to sell the batch of tubs they bought in from Tritech didn't they?

P50

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 05:51:45 PM »
I doubt there's too many complete cars sans body with an I.D. ready to be built up in sheds.

Years ago Alfa Giulias fell to total pieces.  The rot was unrivalled.  Especially the 70's cars.  There were hundreds of UK Alfas with perfect running gear and tidy interiors that were being scrapped.  Coupe's you tried to save.  Berlinas (Saloons) with big engined 1750's and 2000 motors were plundered without thought.  A Giulia Super that had a max of a 1600 engine would do nigh on 130 with a 2000 engine dropped in.

Anyway where I'm going with this is I reckon a Schmitt in its entirity would be a wreck. Not spot on save the shell like an Alfa.  Bald tyres, cracked dome, shot suspension/steering, ripped interior and a knackered motor that lacked power and prob jumped 4th, non charging duff dyna and black box  etc etc.   Some surviving 70's KR's are utter bangers hanging in there but for the grace of god.  A shell would do 'em a favour but they need the works..   You can see why KR's were scrapped in the 60's and 70's..  I know a man who cut up two! Plenty were scrapped to keep the others going.

Mind you of the 90 original Tridents circa 30 survive so 60 went to the rag and bone man one sad Sunday afternoon...           I reckon every bubblehead would save an utter wreck of a Peel given the chance..  I suppose it's down to economics.  KR's aren't cheap...  \Mind you what's cheap in 2010?  What does 20 grand get you classic car wise?

    
"Men of worth act like men of worth, and men of genius, who produce
things beautiful and excellent, shine forth far better when other people
praise them than when they boast so confidently of their own achievements."
-Benvenuto Cellini

Stuart Cyphus

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2010, 06:05:16 PM »

  What does 20 grand get you classic car wise?


   :)   ;)  (Again, the Peel Mafia knows what I mean)   ;)   

Bob Purton

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2010, 06:47:55 PM »
Who else gets the impression that Stuart is bursting to tell us something?

Big Al

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2010, 09:59:14 PM »
Hmm, Alfas. Funnily enough I have a rusty 25k miler in my back yard. I never understood why no one made a kit car for the parts rather than spend a fortune converting a sad Ford assembly to do the same thing. You are not a petrol head until you have had a rusty Alfa?

All I can say about dead schmitts to restore is I have title to some 20 remotely stored of which these monocoques will probably see half as viable projects of some sort. That is why I persued the project which is using other peoples input and cleverness. It is motivated by selfish interest primarily. I agree that such cars are probably unrestorable on the open market but if you source spares from the cheapest sources it is possible to provide these cars as a commercial enterprize or sensible private restoration doing the work oneself (why is doing a Schmitt outside the Club Cheaper?). This is my Enterprize plan, its five year mission to sell off the rather sad collection of Schmitts and to boldly go where the MOC have never been before.

Star Date Cretin minus 5 Capt Burke speaking
I am certain there are cars out there that will restore onto a good monocoque. (Dr Splott says there is life in them but not, perhaps, as we know it). Who knows some of the remaining 10 I have might become viable in 5 years (though Botty tells me I might be short of Sachs dithithium crystals). I am not really sure what to do with the tooling and remaining stuff once I have achieved what I wanted (as Moans says it worse than that as they are dead, Jim). For one thing it would be nice to be out of another remote storage location, (near Aldebaran). I will be left with the easy cars to do over the next 5/10 years leaving me with my collection which will fit in wherever I am living (and I will not have to worry about the MOC on the starboard side, Urhuruhrahurahhanrahan, scrap them off, Jim).
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Stuart Cyphus

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2010, 10:06:10 PM »

Star Date Cretin minus 5 Capt Burke speaking
I am certain there are cars out there that will restore onto a good monocoque. (Dr Splott says there is life in them but not, perhaps, as we know it). Who knows some of the remaining 10 I have might become viable in 5 years (though Botty tells me I might be short of Sachs dithithium crystals). I am not really sure what to do with the tooling and remaining stuff once I have achieved what I wanted (as Moans says it worse than that as they are dead, Jim). For one thing it would be nice to be out of another remote storage location, (near Aldebaran). I will be left with the easy cars to do over the next 5/10 years leaving me with my collection which will fit in wherever I am living (and I will not have to worry about the MOC on the starboard side, Urhuruhrahurahhanrahan, scrap them off, Jim).


 Post of the year so far!  (In my opnion)  But of course the future's bright, the future's orange....  (& this time the Peel Mafia woun't know what I mean.)    ;D

P50

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2010, 07:02:12 AM »

Star Date Cretin minus 5 Capt Burke speaking
I am certain there are cars out there that will restore onto a good monocoque. (Dr Splott says there is life in them but not, perhaps, as we know it). Who knows some of the remaining 10 I have might become viable in 5 years (though Botty tells me I might be short of Sachs dithithium crystals). I am not really sure what to do with the tooling and remaining stuff once I have achieved what I wanted (as Moans says it worse than that as they are dead, Jim). For one thing it would be nice to be out of another remote storage location, (near Aldebaran). I will be left with the easy cars to do over the next 5/10 years leaving me with my collection which will fit in wherever I am living (and I will not have to worry about the MOC on the starboard side, Urhuruhrahurahhanrahan, scrap them off, Jim).




 Post of the year so far!  (In my opnion)  But of course the future's bright, the future's orange....  (& this time the Peel Mafia woun't know what I mean.)    ;D

Al,  there have been a few kits over the years to ressurect rotted Alfas but they're all crap.

Stuart,

Bond Bug?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 07:08:35 AM by P50 »
"Men of worth act like men of worth, and men of genius, who produce
things beautiful and excellent, shine forth far better when other people
praise them than when they boast so confidently of their own achievements."
-Benvenuto Cellini

Bob Purton

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2010, 11:11:01 AM »
Orange peel?

Peelpower

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2010, 02:58:23 PM »

Star Date Cretin minus 5 Capt Burke speaking
I am certain there are cars out there that will restore onto a good monocoque. (Dr Splott says there is life in them but not, perhaps, as we know it). Who knows some of the remaining 10 I have might become viable in 5 years (though Botty tells me I might be short of Sachs dithithium crystals). I am not really sure what to do with the tooling and remaining stuff once I have achieved what I wanted (as Moans says it worse than that as they are dead, Jim). For one thing it would be nice to be out of another remote storage location, (near Aldebaran). I will be left with the easy cars to do over the next 5/10 years leaving me with my collection which will fit in wherever I am living (and I will not have to worry about the MOC on the starboard side, Urhuruhrahurahhanrahan, scrap them off, Jim).


 Post of the year so far!  (In my opnion)  But of course the future's bright, the future's orange....  (& this time the Peel Mafia woun't know what I mean.)    ;D


ARE YOU SURE STUART ?  ;)

karonut

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 07:08:17 PM »
In reply to Bob about the crossmember being difficult to fabricate, they are available from Partsmart!

As for the remanufactured tubs made a few years ago I was not impressed with the final result. (20+ years welding and fabrication experience).

I am about to fabricate another tub from a set of tubes I have and the four contoured and shaped panels (anything but flat) provided from the usual sorce.

This has been mocked up with many clamps and appears to fit together quite well with the rear section, as for the nose the mounting points for this are there as part of the tube assembly (front edge of Crossmenber and two brackets on the tubes) and should not vary a great deal.

So it is Happy Welding this summer Holidays.
1960 Messerschmitt KR200, 1957 Messerschmitt KR200, 1961 Messerschmitt KR200 Sport.

Bob Purton

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 08:38:38 AM »
I didn't know that partspart had them, I haven't been an MOC member for about three years. Well that makes the job a whole lot easier then! I remember quite a few folk saying the same about the welding quality [or lack of it] of the tubs. I was standing in Dave Garners garage once and he was showing me a car he rebuilt using one of the new tubs and even he admitted that it was very awkward to assemble because nothing quite lined up.

Big Al

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Re: Messerschmitt Monocoque
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 09:53:44 AM »
In reply to Bob about the crossmember being difficult to fabricate, they are available from Partsmart!

As for the re manufactured tubs made a few years ago I was not impressed with the final result. (20+ years welding and fabrication experience).

The monocoque available from Partsmart some years ago was constructed by Tri Tech. There were several issues with this. The chief was the front box section was butt welded. In fact the original has an overlapping lip on each section so each corner and weld is double thick. Very much stronger. The spot welds on the panelling were a long way appart. It was however quite cheap at £750 so you get what you pay for.
Not sure what crossmember Partsmart sell but if it is a flat pack they are not easy to assemble without a jig. Clearly the box section and tube need to be bung perfect or the rest will be wrong, hence the huge jig. Taking the jig from three differing original monocoques shows that the production item has quite a large error margin but the key structure is consistant. So little things come apparent like the fact that the box section top is actually at 5 degrees to the floorpan. Getting that wrong means your front wheel geometry is never going to be correct. Tales of wondering Schmitts..... As in all things what looks simple is not when you try and replicate it.

Anyway the status of the production remains to be decided after I have run my lot off it. The fact remains there are quite a few basket cases like the one mentioned here that need serious metalwork in the monocoque to get a car back again. A jig is but one way of doing this.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs