Author Topic: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration  (Read 26982 times)

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2012, 01:31:57 pm »
Surly it can't do any harm to have some evidence of the other cars.
I have talked to the people at VOSA whilst they inspected the confusing numbers on my NSU.  All resolved now.
They are human and really like their job to be easy.  The more you give them, the happier they are to assist.

Some people seem to pre-empt disaster and trouble, others seem to like it to be as hard a task as possible.

I have been after details of your Lawil for ages and ages.  I just need a copy of the relevant page of the V5.  It seems that only thumb screws and pulled out finger nails will help in this endeavour!
I am pretty sure Crayford did not actually make the few 'British' Lawils.  Surly they were imported and badged?  In any case evidence tying the Crayford Lawil to an Italian Lawil would smooth the path to registration.
Why do you come up with all the reasons why a copy of the V5 will be of no use?  Maybe it won't but we will never know it seems.
If you simply will not let me have a copy just say so.  Don't blame it on the scanner or something else.

Now we have the same issue with Mini Comtesse.  You have the paperwork for a UK Registered car but have decided it will not be of any use.  Maybe it won't but we will never know it seems.

Surly it can't do any harm to supply a scan, or if you don't have scanning facility just send the original.  I will pay all costs.  (Can we trust Royal Mail.......)

Come on Al , Give us a bit of help on this one.




cuscus47

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2012, 03:29:42 pm »
Hello Barry:  I have just sent you an e-mail. V5 is in my office, not with me right now. Old eagle-eyed Bob was right when he said I was in America and wouldn't Mot it or insure it in UK, so I do not know those details.  Stuart would know and so why don't you e-mail him?  Good luck in obtaining the correct paperwork.  One other MC I have I never had a V5, only the "Carte Gris" (spelling) from France and that was sufficient to Title and register it Illinois, a few years back.  No roadworthy, Mot, or any inspections in my part of Illinois but that would not be relevent to your situation anyway.   Ian.
AC, Acoma, Argsons, Arola, Batricars, Bianchina, Carter, Citroens, Cushmans, Dafs, ElectricPal, ElectricShopper, Elswick, Eshelman, Everest, Goggo, Harding, Invacar, Levesons, Lloyd, Marketeer, Model 70's (AC, Invacar), Nelcos, Poirier, Reliants, Renaults, Sinclairs,Trabant, Trilox, Tippen etal

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2012, 06:06:52 pm »
All received Ian.
You are a true gentleman and this information will be a great help if I manage to get my Mini Comtesse back from Paris.
It will also help with the Super Comtesse.

Many thanks for your help and fast response

Barry

Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)

  • Global Moderator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1221
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2012, 06:25:07 pm »
Don't know if this might help, but I see the Crayford William in the Dezer Collection (SJY 706L) still comes up in the DVLA database.

http://www.dezercollection.com/1971-crayford-william-lawil-jeep-%5Bpav.%5D-c-285.htm

The vehicle details for SJY 706L are:
Date of Liability    01 07 1996
Date of First Registration    01 07 1993
Year of Manufacture    1972
Cylinder Capacity (cc)    246cc
CO2 Emissions    Not Available
Fuel Type    PETROL
Export Marker    N
Vehicle Status    Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour    YELLOW
Vehicle Type Approval    Not Available
Vehicle Excise Duty rate for vehicle
6 Months Rate    £71.50
12 Months Rate    £130.00
Malcolm
Bond Mk D - "The Bond Minicar solves your problem"
Nobel 200 - "Almost as cheap as breathing!"

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2012, 06:31:58 pm »
That is all good information.
Many thanks

Barry
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 10:43:12 pm by Isetta_Owner »

NickPoll

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 180
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2012, 06:56:40 pm »
Hello Barry,     I've emailed my friend who owns a Ligier in the UK. I've asked him if he's registered it and if so, can I pass his email address onto you. I'm waiting for him to reply. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back. There's a chance he may be away for Christmas & the New Year though.          regards, Nick.
Messerschmitt Tiger 500, KR201 roadster, 1955 KR200, 1958 KR200, 1959 KR200, 1964 KR200, Nobel 200, Morgan Super Sports, Goggo Coupe, Isetta 300, Velorex 350, Bond mk D, Lomax.

jean-do

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 226
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2012, 08:59:48 am »
hi friends , about  registration documents in france, since 2011 ALL  must be with title and licence plates . this operation is still free for mopeds, tricycles and "QCM" ( quadri cycles with engines(moteurs) .
so before buying this minicomtesse , ask the seller to do the title
he must give the "factory decription title, two pictures , document  of selling by ex- owner ; and  document for his licence plates demand  . then with new licence plates on its micro; he will be able to do a selling document for you , giving you the title documents : and you will be ready to go to custom services .....
 
"Bubblecars & Scooters en Bourgogne" president
scooters & microcars addict since 1985
http://bubblecars.aero-jean-do.com
next edition : 28-30 august 2018 : ROLUX special edition !!

Big Al

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4578
  • Ranttweiler, biting the breeze block of banter
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2012, 11:34:25 am »

Come on Al , Give us a bit of help on this one.


If I had either document here, on file, I would be more than happy to share information. However as previously said the papers are in limbo at buds mothers house and subject to some sort of family blackmail situation I am not party too. Clearly I would be delighted if this situation was resolved without my recourse to spending £50 on duplicate V5C. Until I do or the situation is otherwise resolved I cannot access the information. The Comtesse is not stored down here either so I cannot look at that in the flesh, as it were.

The papers I need to scan are for the Flipper, wasn't it.

I keep meaning to photograph the chassis plate on the Crayford. You are correct that they are plated up as Lawil but the difference is Crayford bought a licence to market the car, convert it such that it was consistent with the then legal requirements in Great Britain and did all the work to clear registrations through DVLA for the Lawil Crayford derivatives they sold. Technically to take advantage of that avenue I suspect that DVLA would expect it to be a Crayford therefore. A Crayford is not a Lawil in the same way a Mivillino is not a Messerschmitt even though it looks like one. I do not know if they have tied Lawil and Willam together either. They should not have done but who knows how much information they have and how accurate the information they keep needs to be. I have plenty of V5C carrying errors, two Heinkel rear diggers for instance, and to be honest do not trust DVLA records which are far more concerned with revenue collection than vehicle information.

I avoid having hassle with DVLA and LVO by sorting out my paperwork and stuff before making a presentation. This is what you are attempting to do, of course. I have never referenced other peoples cars, though, as I would hate for that to then create a problem since there are many ways to obtain a registration document.... If the original information is present then the process has been very simple but then I have never done a post '73 car. The Comtesse came registered already. You have to go back to Goggo PMR to find a imported post '73 car registered by me. THat was because the car was not declared at Dover by the German seller and I had to do it through Oxford Customs and Excise and they did not know the rules!

Hopefully the documents I await might become available as this discussion is read and the blocked situation resolved.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

Stuart Cyphus

  • Possibly the most fabulous person in the universe....
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1491
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2012, 04:25:27 pm »
I Have a Mini Comtess with V5c all duly registered et al but currently on SORN.  It doesn't have a Q plate (KAUxxxx).

On front of V5 states       " 1. was registered and/or used.  Declared manufactured 1975." 

On second page states

Date of first registration  08 04 1975. 
Date of first registration in the UK  09 02 2005. 
Make...   Acoma. 
Body Type.... Tricycle.
Taxation Class.... Tricycle.
Revenue weight....  135.0 Kg Unladen.
Cylinder capacity....  47cc,  Petrol.   
Wheelplan....  3-wheel. 
Type approval number.... 98/69/EC   
etc etc etc.  No further info on it after colour.


This was Stutart's old MC.       :)   Ian.


 That there is indeed my old Mini Comtesse which went to Ian last year. Note it states "Date of first registration 8/4/75" & "Date of first registration in UK 9/2/05".  All MINI Comtesse's have the date of the French equivalent of their original type approval stamped on the chassis plate, which is that 8/4/75 date in this case. It is a recognised date upon the recognised chassis plate therefore certainly back when mine was registered here in 2005, that stamped date was evidence enough of its year of manufacturer, therefore ANY Mini Comtesse presented at that time would have been declared by the DVLA as being April 1975 despite the Mini Comtesse actually having been in production from 1972 to 1979-80ish. I don't know if ALL Funny French Fhings have the "Type Approval" date stamped on all their chassis plates, but that's the way it worked back in 2005 for my Mini Comtesse. 

 I didn't register mine. I bought it fully taxed. mot'ed & registered from Tony Yorston of Lesctershire in September 2006. I don't have his contact details to hand, but Jean may well. I never renewed the MoT on it due to every tester in Oxfordshire at the time refusing point-blank to test it due to its size "not fitting their equipment". This being before I studied the MOT testers rulebook which says smallness of size isn't an excuse not to test, they just have to do it the hard way rolling around on the floor. By the time I found that out I'd lost intrest & gone onto other things.

 Of the Crayford cars which have been flagged up occasionaly in this topic, basically forget all about them for the duration of this particular subject, ie, registering a Pans Permis car in 2012. The Crayfords were a batch of William/Lawil's brought in by Crayford the convertable car maker in the late 1960s and were all registered as brand-new cars at that time under the Crayford name. They were not registered as Williams or Lawil's, but as an already-recognised OTHER type of vehicle. (Crayford). Plus in the 1960s it was just fill out the details in the ledger & theres your number to slap on it. Therefore the Crayfords will serve absolute NO use at all to getting a recent-import non-UK registered Comtesse/William/Lawil/Mini Cat/Splatwagon etc etc a registration in 2012.  In fact anyone with a Willam or Lawil would be far better off in my opinion in flogging it & putting the money towards getting hold of a Crayford!

 On a more general note,  I had to smile when Alan showed me this thread this morning. I remember when I got my Mini Comtesse. Half of you on here sat there & laughed at me. Now you all want a French Thing.....     ;)

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2012, 05:38:30 pm »
And the same half are STILL laughing!

Is buying a Crayford a very practical suggestion though as only a tiny amount were made? Dont get me wrong, I would be in the que!

NickPoll

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 180
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2012, 05:53:40 pm »
No, we don't all want a sans permit, believe me. Maybe the one with the Yam R6 motor for blasting up the mountains would be ok in my garage though, but no more, can't stand them.     Nick.
Messerschmitt Tiger 500, KR201 roadster, 1955 KR200, 1958 KR200, 1959 KR200, 1964 KR200, Nobel 200, Morgan Super Sports, Goggo Coupe, Isetta 300, Velorex 350, Bond mk D, Lomax.

Jonathan Poll

  • Jonny One Nob
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1132
  • Nobel 200 Anorak
    • Nobel 200 Restoration
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2012, 06:33:27 pm »
And the same half are STILL laughing!

Is buying a Crayford a very practical suggestion though as only a tiny amount were made? Dont get me wrong, I would be in the que!

Yep, we are!

I'm like my dad, but not that bad ;)

I hate them all apart from the MC that I would only get if very cheap! (very)

You cant really use those cars for long trips (unless your a ginger!), so I'm out!
Cars: Messerschmitt KR200, Nobel 200
Mopeds:
- Peugeot BB3SP, BB3T, BB3 "BITZA", BB VT, BB104,  TSA, Bima Luxe,
- Motobecane: 50V, M7 SL, 51 Club, EV50
- Other mopeds: Malaguti Superquattro, Solex 2200, Puch Monza, Puch Maxi

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2012, 10:36:07 pm »
I Have a Mini Comtess with V5c all duly registered et al but currently on SORN.  It doesn't have a Q plate (KAUxxxx).

On front of V5 states       " 1. was registered and/or used.  Declared manufactured 1975."  

On second page states

Date of first registration  08 04 1975.  
Date of first registration in the UK  09 02 2005.  
Make...   Acoma.  
Body Type.... Tricycle.
Taxation Class.... Tricycle.
Revenue weight....  135.0 Kg Unladen.
Cylinder capacity....  47cc,  Petrol.  
Wheelplan....  3-wheel.  
Type approval number.... 98/69/EC    
etc etc etc.  No further info on it after colour.


This was Stutart's old MC.       :)   Ian.


 That there is indeed my old Mini Comtesse which went to Ian last year. Note it states "Date of first registration 8/4/75" & "Date of first registration in UK 9/2/05".  All MINI Comtesse's have the date of the French equivalent of their original type approval stamped on the chassis plate, which is that 8/4/75 date in this case. It is a recognised date upon the recognised chassis plate therefore certainly back when mine was registered here in 2005, that stamped date was evidence enough of its year of manufacturer, therefore ANY Mini Comtesse presented at that time would have been declared by the DVLA as being April 1975 despite the Mini Comtesse actually having been in production from 1972 to 1979-80ish. I don't know if ALL Funny French Fhings have the "Type Approval" date stamped on all their chassis plates, but that's the way it worked back in 2005 for my Mini Comtesse.  

 I didn't register mine. I bought it fully taxed. mot'ed & registered from Tony Yorston of Lesctershire in September 2006. I don't have his contact details to hand, but Jean may well. I never renewed the MoT on it due to every tester in Oxfordshire at the time refusing point-blank to test it due to its size "not fitting their equipment". This being before I studied the MOT testers rulebook which says smallness of size isn't an excuse not to test, they just have to do it the hard way rolling around on the floor. By the time I found that out I'd lost intrest & gone onto other things.

 Of the Crayford cars which have been flagged up occasionaly in this topic, basically forget all about them for the duration of this particular subject, ie, registering a Pans Permis car in 2012. The Crayfords were a batch of William/Lawil's brought in by Crayford the convertable car maker in the late 1960s and were all registered as brand-new cars at that time under the Crayford name. They were not registered as Williams or Lawil's, but as an already-recognised OTHER type of vehicle. (Crayford). Plus in the 1960s it was just fill out the details in the ledger & theres your number to slap on it. Therefore the Crayfords will serve absolute NO use at all to getting a recent-import non-UK registered Comtesse/William/Lawil/Mini Cat/Splatwagon etc etc a registration in 2012.  In fact anyone with a Willam or Lawil would be far better off in my opinion in flogging it & putting the money towards getting hold of a Crayford!

 On a more general note,  I had to smile when Alan showed me this thread this morning. I remember when I got my Mini Comtesse. Half of you on here sat there & laughed at me. Now you all want a French Thing.....     ;)

Stuart.
All good information, thanks.
It would be interesting to see the chassis plate on a Crayford (Willam /Lawil)  I wonder if it is a 'Lawil' branded plate.  It would be good to see a picture of Al's Chassis plate.
I have several Sans Permis and I laugh every time I see them.  My boys also have a laugh driving them round the garden as they cost less than a small quad bike and unlike the Isetta, it doesn't matter too much if they hit a tree!

Barry

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2012, 10:42:26 pm »
hi friends , about  registration documents in france, since 2011 ALL  must be with title and licence plates . this operation is still free for mopeds, tricycles and "QCM" ( quadri cycles with engines(moteurs) .
so before buying this minicomtesse , ask the seller to do the title
he must give the "factory decription title, two pictures , document  of selling by ex- owner ; and  document for his licence plates demand  . then with new licence plates on its micro; he will be able to do a selling document for you , giving you the title documents : and you will be ready to go to custom services .....
 

Thank you for this local information.
I will ask my French seller about this.
Regards
Barry

skootashaun

  • Chatty
  • ***
  • Posts: 42
Re: sans permis Taxation class and UK registration
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2012, 10:08:51 pm »
Forgot my login  :-[
But back now, thanks admin, and I will get onto the registering my Willam soon.

I have been skip reading this thread and forgive me if I misread something but:

Quote
I remember when I got my Mini Comtesse. Half of you on here sat there & laughed at me. Now you all want a French Thing.....     

Quote
its not the mot man you need to worry about, they generally dont know there a**e from there elbow

Bloody rude  >:(

Quote
And the same half are STILL laughing!

Rude  :-\
Quote
Yep, we are!

I'm like my dad, but not that bad
Doubly rude  ::)

Quote
No, we don't all want a sans permit, believe me.  but no more, can't stand them.  Nick.

Bloody rude  >:(



Quote
At the moment my MOT station can do everything till you need plating. I am not sure what happens when Mike retires as he has all the odd licences. He is 70 now.

I am his younger version, I test class 1,2,3,4,7 and shortly 5 as well.
It helps  I appreciate all classics, and read the guidlines where required and allow on the merits of the vehicle, all within the VOSA guidelines.

The rest I have read in this thread is that french micro cars are laughed at and deemed not a proper microcar  ???
Microcar snobbery from what I see,

Shaun.
yup yup rabbit yup yup yup rabbit rabbit bunny jabber yup rabbit bunny yup yup yup rabbit bunny jabber yup yup yup rabbit bunny jabber yup yup bunny jabber rabbit