sans permis Taxation class and UK registration

[Barry]

you dont need seatbelts under a certain weight, think its 225 kg but dont quote me, also, any road tyres, ie a tyre that is in contact with the road surface HAS to carry Emarks AND be load and speed rated for the application.,that would include your "stabilizers". from experience, there are no tyres with correct markings available under 6", and even those took some sourcing.

I never thought the 4" stabiliser tyres would be a problem.  Converting to 6" looks almost impossible without cutting away bodywork.
Perhaps I could raise everything up and inch.
I could take the whole body (and stabilisers) off, get it MOT'd as a moped and then put everything back on!
Or, hope that my local bike MOT man doesn't check the 4" tyres.  (whilst he is rolling about on the floor laughing).
I will definitely try to get this monster on the road, I don't think there is anyone (still alive) that has driven one in traffic.

[Barry]

This question of registering old sans permis cars has been kicked around for some time now, what we need is a trail blazer to answer the questions once and for all, I nominate Barry [isetta owner]! Reasons being he appears to have the time and secondly he has half of europes sans permis cars in his garage! 

Bob
I was discussing this with my 'advisor' this morning and we decided that we should have a go at getting these vehicles licensed.
It's about time we sorted it out for once and for all.
If there is anyone out there that already has a Sans Permis 50cc (or 125cc perhaps) with a UK registration, please get in touch.
Barry

[Bob Purton]

I salute you sir! Let us know how you get on.

[daughter of bamby]

its not the mot man you need to worry about, they generally dont know there a**e from there elbow, if you have no docs for a vehicle it will have to be inspected, and if its age/origin is in question,it will be tested as a "new" vehicle,as per our P50s, which incidentally took 6 mnths to develop to the point where we passed the neccesary type approval tests. talking to the guy who did our test, he commented on the tyre situation saying that he recently failed a vehicle with stabilizers as they are considered road wheels and they were not e marked,neither would he pass it as a tricycle as it in effect had 5 wheels,plus there is a thing called design and construction,which is subjective to say the least. if the tester sees that a 3 wheel vehicle has been fitted with stabilizers, he is within his rights to fail it on the grounds that it is clearly unstable,hence the fitting of said stabilizers, thus constituting "bad design". as for taking off the body, stabilizers etc before test, its true they cant fail something that isnt there, however, if a vehicle is presented for test and appears to be unfinished or incomplete, a refusal of test will be issued. having got a p50 through a test succesfully and registered with dvla,all legal and above board, i feel confident we could get most things through, unfortunately,the time and costs involved in doing so would probably make it not viable. however, if you have money to spare, we would consider taking on such a task. good luck.

[Barry]

I salute you sir! Let us know how you get on.

Big Al says he has a Mini Comtesse with a registration (he also says he has a Lawil / Willam with a registration). 
So far he has not come up with any scans of the V5c's. 
This would be a really good start.
Proving to DVLA and VOSA that these things are already in the system would tick a very big box.
Come on Big Al, Less cryptic messages and more scanning please!

[Barry]

its not the mot man you need to worry about, they generally dont know there a**e from there elbow, if you have no docs for a vehicle it will have to be inspected, and if its age/origin is in question,it will be tested as a "new" vehicle,as per our P50s, which incidentally took 6 mnths to develop to the point where we passed the neccesary type approval tests. talking to the guy who did our test, he commented on the tyre situation saying that he recently failed a vehicle with stabilizers as they are considered road wheels and they were not e marked,neither would he pass it as a tricycle as it in effect had 5 wheels,plus there is a thing called design and construction,which is subjective to say the least. if the tester sees that a 3 wheel vehicle has been fitted with stabilizers, he is within his rights to fail it on the grounds that it is clearly unstable,hence the fitting of said stabilizers, thus constituting "bad design". as for taking off the body, stabilizers etc before test, its true they cant fail something that isnt there, however, if a vehicle is presented for test and appears to be unfinished or incomplete, a refusal of test will be issued. having got a p50 through a test succesfully and registered with dvla,all legal and above board, i feel confident we could get most things through, unfortunately,the time and costs involved in doing so would probably make it not viable. however, if you have money to spare, we would consider taking on such a task. good luck.

The main thing is that these vehicles are clearly not new. 
Luckily the chassis plates normally have a date on them. Not necessarily the date the vehicle was made but probably (in French) the date the model was first introduced / passed, I may be wrong. 
I think that the Minicat was only produced for two years so that narrows it down a bit. 
For others, Mike Shepherd may be able to help with literature and provide a dating certificate.
From the RUMcars it may be possible to identify cars that are UK registered and perhaps the owners (not always using the forum) could be contacted with a view to having examples of various models already UK registered.
I will start my quest in the New Year.

With a date, it must make it easier.  If there are known UK registered Sans Permis this would set a good precedent.

[daughter of bamby]

it makes no odds that a vehicle has been registered, mr bloggs registered his comtesse in 1990, the laws,rules,regs were different back then, as previously stated in a past post, one could build,buy,import anything and just fill in the relevant forms and recieve a number, and log book. any vehicle with no paperwork HAS to go for an IVA prior to dvla registering it. a dating cert will help. but just because one maybe in the system dosnt mean it will be any easyer. each and every vehicle is tested as an individual and on its own merits. i am having difficulties registering a 1957 chevrolet that was modified in the usa back in the late 60s, there are countless other 57 chevys registered but it means diddly squat, its that particular car, on that particular day, with that particular test operative. as a footnote and to confuse things further, DVLA and VOSA have conflicting rules and DONT communicate. welcome to modern britain folks.

[Barry]

That all sound pretty promising then!

[Bob Purton]

"any vehicle with no paperwork HAS to go for an IVA prior to dvla registering it"

I have recently registered two old cars and three motorcycles all without documentation and have recieved age related numbers for all and none of them had to be tested, they all with the exception of a moped were looked at [engine and frame numbers noted] by the local DVLA office. The moped was inspected by the moped club and that was enough to get it registered so my experiences dont match up to what Mrs Bamby is saying, I may be missing something here so will stand corrected.

[daughter of bamby]

can i have your local dvla details, seems like the place to be for an easy ride.

[Bob Purton]

    Come down to the Chelmsford office!

[cuscus47]

I Have a Mini Comtess with V5c all duly registered et al but currently on SORN.  It doesn't have a Q plate (KAUxxxx).

On front of V5 states       " 1. was registered and/or used.  Declared manufactured 1975." 

On second page states

Date of first registration  08 04 1975. 
Date of first registration in the UK  09 02 2005. 
Make...   Acoma. 
Body Type.... Tricycle.
Taxation Class.... Tricycle.
Revenue weight....  135.0 Kg Unladen.
Cylinder capacity....  47cc,  Petrol.   
Wheelplan....  3-wheel. 
Type approval number.... 98/69/EC   
etc etc etc.  No further info on it after colour.


This was Stutart's old MC.          Ian.

[Barry]

Can you send a scan of the V5 Ian?
My email address is available on my info page.

Have you had it MOT'd?  Any problems?

How much is the Tax?

[Bob Purton]

I think Ian is in the US so would not be mot'ing it but Stuart MOT'ed it whilst in his ownership.

At least this shows that someone imported it and registered it in 2005.

[Big Al]

it makes no odds that a vehicle has been registered, mr bloggs registered his comtesse in 1990, the laws,rules,regs were different back then, as previously stated in a past post, one could build,buy,import anything and just fill in the relevant forms and recieve a number, and log book. any vehicle with no paperwork HAS to go for an IVA prior to dvla registering it. a dating cert will help. but just because one maybe in the system dosnt mean it will be any easyer. each and every vehicle is tested as an individual and on its own merits. i am having difficulties registering a 1957 chevrolet that was modified in the usa back in the late 60s, there are countless other 57 chevys registered but it means diddly squat, its that particular car, on that particular day, with that particular test operative. as a footnote and to confuse things further, DVLA and VOSA have conflicting rules and DONT communicate. welcome to modern britain folks.

This is the pertinent thing above.

That I have registered vehicles similar to ones now wanting registration helps very little. DVLA has records of certain vehicles it recognises. If you have a Ford Focus they know what that is. They do not know what a Mini Comtesse is even though about 4 are now registered I believe. No manufacturer has furnished them with type approval information, crash test info or other guff. They will more than likely opt for IVA
Europe has forced European vehicles to be recognised but the British system reserves the right to select how to register it within our system of rules. So the analogy is you are mixing diesel with veggie oil to create fuel. Much disperses into the system mixing to variation of compounds and all burns well enough but a certain quantity does not mix at all and sinks to the bottom of the tank where it is very much more hard to pick it up and to burn it creates chip shop smells. After a period of time this un mixed element is really best discarded (export) as it just does not aid what is in the tank and sits inert holding crud (money) likely to choke the flow (unusable).

Elsewhere come to a re reg of an NSU Quickly and a Minerali Swifty and it is referred to a designated club expert. It saves DVLA time. The NSU is unlikely to get pulled now as the number of inspections has reduced. DVLA has nigh on killed off private number plate trading so there is no money in it. Also it has records of NSU so knows what it should be. There is confidence in a good outcome. However they might pull the Swifty as they will have no record of what that is. On inspection they could then take a dislike to it for a design reason even if it has an old registration - it would depend on the evidence presented - and off you go through the system as per Bamby P50, IVA.

Chelmsford Office is an LVO not DVLA nor VOSA. Do not mix these organisations, they do not mix themselves!

With respect to Lawil I have the benefit of mine being a Crayford and therefore a recognised separate British made vehicle to a Lawil though the cars have common roots. Likewise the Comtesse has an old enough registration to be stable. I cannot scan a document I do not have in my hand sadly. The class tax is irrelevant as it would have been correct at the time of issue but in all probability the laws have changed between then and now.

Either case is related to date of registration process. The law is continually evolving and what hoops my Mini Comtesse had to jump through some 15 years ago will be different and less than what is needed now. The only help prior registrations offer is to convince DVLA that a Mini Comtesse is a production manufactured machine and they can push a few buttons and bring up the relevant records on their computer screen. Now that could create a problem for those recently registered if some are Q, some not and several are mopeds and others Quads. Guess where you are going to get a registration, yep off down the Bamby P50 route of IVA and you might suck several already registered cars in with you to sort out an 'inconsistency'.