Surely sans permis cars are san permis and the other ones not. They are not both at once unless they are avec permis in there spare time. So unregistered exported and all French san permis are sans permis along with other exported unregistered cars including such things as LHD Bonds, since the cannot be real cars in that form. However on gaining valid registration as cars in any other country, but France, although the French retain the right to register them, should they choose, all these cars move to their designated none sans permis section on the forum leaving only the sans permis that are sans permis remaining on that site. I trust that is clear, Richard. If not you could move to France and practice your all conquering Gallic shrug of indifference. Now maybe thats it! The cars are shrug started, Steven. It explains the spare levers/strings/pedals etc.