Author Topic: Mess-a-schmitt  (Read 19468 times)

Big Al

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2014, 07:38:44 am »
Designers flirt with the notion but modern safety and gizmo requirements would suggest that the real '50's minimalist approach is most unlikely to be a success without the intervention of a political or financial incentive. A possible marketable modern micro currently would need to make best use of the newest of technology, this tends to be beyond stylists and designers, and is the preserve of the engineer. Just as ever it was with the best of the Classic Microcars. They tending to be from the pinnacle of the breed then, aero-engineers, using first principle thinking, not copying what went before.   
The contender exists, by Gordon Murray, not from the aero world, but from the new pinnacle of Motor Racing. Yet even this stunningly clever and ground breaking car cannot find a backer to mass market it. 
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

AndyL

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2014, 11:24:58 am »
I thought they had a backer to put T.25 into production?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/murray-t25-and-t27-confirmed-production

1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.

AndyL

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2014, 11:39:27 am »
For me the closest thing to a modern day Schmitt is the Eco-exo which was designed by Stuart Mills of MEV. Clearly an exo skeleton car, but that affords reasonable crash protection as you are effectively surround by a roll cage- certainly safer than a motorbike IMO. Wouldn't take a huge leap of imagination to make a GRP shell to fully enclose the car.



With a standard 400cc Suzuki lump in the back you have a power to weight ratio of over 150 bhp per ton, that's GTI territory but with 75mpg+ economy, sweet.
1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.

marcus

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2014, 12:10:59 pm »
That Eco-Exo looks great and must be a lot of fun. However I am not sure how good it would be for myself and squeak to go for a drive, go shopping, or for me to carry a compact drum kit in! Many Bubbles and Micros were genuinely USEFUL tiny cars, room for some shopping or camping gear and weather protection.
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face

Big Al

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2014, 01:02:45 pm »
Two comments.

Church Pod.

What makes Eco-exo a microcar? Are we getting confused over engines again? Microcars are not sportscars. Sporting, possibly. The key element is minimalist everyday transportation, as far as I am concerned. 
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

AndyL

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 01:31:08 pm »
No confusion here.

RUM definition of a micro car-

Economy vehicles with either three or four wheels, powered by petrol engines of no more than 700cc or battery electric propulsion, and manufactured since 1945


The eco-exo is a reverse trike usually paired with a 400cc Suzuki Burgman engine. This engine produces about 32-35 horsepower depending on the vintage, with the newer efi models bringing higher power and efficiency than the earlier carburettor based versions. The trike can also be fitted with a 250 variant of the engine, although that version is no longer in production. The performance is purely from point of the very lightweight design (462 pounds), and I don't see why microcars shouldn't be sporty. In all forms it's a micro car as far as I'm concerned.

In it's standard form it's not hugely practical (although no worse than a motorcycle) having no real weather protection, but some could be constructed by a home builder. In my view it's a good base to start from. Some builders in the states have attached panniers to the side. My Dad did something similar with his Messershcmitt back in the 60's- his KR200 wasn't exactly blessed with stowage space as standard.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 01:39:11 pm by AndyL »
1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.

DaveMiller

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 02:04:50 pm »
> I don't see why microcars shouldn't be sporty. In all forms it's a micro car as far as I'm concerned. <

Well, Andy, I guess it hinges on "economy".  Microcars are (as the Rumcars definition says) essentially "economy" cars, and very few sports cars manage both performance and economy.

To what extent is the Eco-exo an economy car?  (Nowadays, it'd need to do about 100 mpg to be regarded as an economy car - after all, I've just been for an 80-mile ride in my 1.5-tonne, 5-seater estate car and got 77.3 mpg average!)

marcus

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 02:05:03 pm »
Seems a micro to me, but even if not it is still "Unusual" ! The Messerschmitt record breaker is more Sports Car than "Micro" or "Bubble", but still counts in my book!
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face

Big Al

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 02:57:10 pm »
That is RUMcars definition for an Unusual Microcar, spot on. Repeat.

Church Pod.
(A scooter with a front chassis converting it into a three wheeler commuter car. 250cc twist and go with a roof. That is a microcar. Its practical transport not a sportscar for dry weather. If I cut the roof off and put a burgman in, what do I have? An Exo-pod, not a microcar. Microcars are little related to Motorcycles, historically. Much more in common with Scooters, to the extent of being weatherproof scooters in some incarnations) 

What makes this a microcar?
(So a Formula Junior racing car is a microcar, is it? Other than other peoples definition, nothing so far here. So I remain at difference. But you all knew that anyway! )

Slightly mystified by the use of the term reverse trike. I assume this is referring to the two wheels at the front. Not heard that before. It always seemed rather silly to have the wheels the other way round to me, but there we go, it gets the message across efficiently so I go with it.

This shows the reason why Microcars, or Classic Microcars, need to have a closing date to define their era. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 03:02:47 pm by Big Al »
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

AndyL

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 03:10:21 pm »
I've seen the Church pod you mentioned. Not quite my cup of tea although I appreciate some of the finer points of the design, to my mark one eyeball the eco-exo looks a more balanced design.

Doubtful the 400cc version would give you 100mpg, but you might well achieve that with the 250cc version.

Granted that many modern cars with diesel or stratified charge petrol engines can give impressive economy under cruise conditions, but with short journeys in urban environments with lots of stopping and starting, economy drops off significantly even with careful driving. That's the advantage of a lightweight car with a small engine.

The engine tech for scooters is less sophisticated than modern cars. Volkswagen have demonstrated what is possible with the use of a modern smaller engine in a streamlined bodyshell with the XL1- a car capable of well over 100mpg on diesel alone. However the cost of the car is ridiculous.

However I don't think economy is just about fuel use, but also economy of resources and energy in the manufacture of the vehicle.
1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.

Big Al

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2014, 08:23:39 pm »
Church Pod is an odd shape, but one mans vision. I think you transposed the engine sizes, but yes indeed. The older 250cc should give 70 mph happily. Personally I think the narrow track/steering bar will then start to come into play for stability. More interesting is economy at around 55 mph as it is designed as a commuter.

Scooters offer twist and go. That is technology very much in the line that microcars might use, for it is ease of driving and a bought in solution ideal for limited capital production.

I doubt the big manufacturers have any real interest in tiny cars. Only political or financial pressure will get them to go there. See Q class cars as to what can be done.

Economy/green, spot on. How green are some of these special 'green' cars? How much greener is rebuilding older cars and uprating the engine.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

AndyL

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2014, 08:50:44 pm »
Sorry I was referring to the eco-exo when talking engine sizes. To the best of my knowledge no one has built an eco-exo with a 250cc engine, although it remains an option. Builders tend to plumb straight for the 400cc version.

I agree that manufacturers have little incentive to build smaller cars, when they can make a lot more money selling larger cars. Gordon Murray's istream production process may shake things up allowing smaller manufacturers to build little cars competitively that also comply with modern safety legislation.
1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.

Big Al

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2014, 07:58:56 am »
But this car concept is already old now. One plank of sales is missing, the shock of the new. Just shows the probs of production. Fend and co just got on with it, bumbled through, or not and a few cars made it. Minimalism in all cases. 
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

fuoriserie

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2014, 01:25:37 pm »
I thought they had a backer to put T.25 into production?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/murray-t25-and-t27-confirmed-production

It could be Yamaha,  as they did hire Gordon Murray  to utilize his iStream manufacturing technology with one of their Concept Cars :

http://www.motorward.com/2013/11/yamaha-motiv-e-city-car-concept-takes-tokyo-storm/

AndyL

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Re: Mess-a-schmitt
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2014, 02:02:30 pm »
No I don't think so, the Motiv-e was a different car, albeit one sharing some ideas from the T.25.

I thought it may be someone like Virgin or Google or perhaps Apple dipping their toes into car production.
1959 LHD 3-wheel Isetta.