should I ...

[messerschmitt]

....sell my Messerschmitt (which is currently non running) and squander the money on a mix of tidy but less expensive microcars that are road legal (MoT/Tax) - I'm thinking Goggo, Bond, Heinkel, a French thing or two.

I've had the Schmitt since 1988 (previous owner since 1970) and she's been on the road in that time (about 5000 miles in my ownership). She needs a proper resto but is not rusty and falling apart, and is an original all matching numbers car, with history, manuals, tools, spares, etc. It's worth, on current prices £15k plus perhaps another £1k for the spares and tools and I could have a Goggo 400 coupe and saloon for that money as well as another car.


Discuss

[Big Al]

Is this an investment or a lifestyle choice?

Messerschmitts are the Morgan of the era. They will remain predictably valuable with spares availability. I would suggest the spares are going through a hiatus at the moment as the Club effect is eroded by a lack of club type activity and private enterprize but the value will mean, at a price, you can buy the parts. So the Schmitt is Mr Safe's bet as well as that minority who feel they are the best things on wheels.

Sell your Schmitt and where do you find another as good at the price? Only luck will yield. So that is a one way trip fiscally, I feel. Given time Britain will be emptied of the good Schmitts by the power of foreign money with the sense to look out a good deal. This will leave a diminishing pool proportionally favouring clunkers, unused 'show' rubbish and cars needing expensive restoration as they have been done wrong. Likewise road ready, used cars will swindle and only limited numbers will go out to play. We are at the end of the golden years of usage. This might make the difference as Schmitts will be as numerous or not as everything else in the class from here. 

Goggo, problem one. Where to you get a good one? They are not easy to restore and expensive to do right. Easy if you go LHD but not if you want RHD and they have minimal resale value as the only strong market has its own cars - Australia. LHD offers better investment but a good 400 is an overtaking machine. Also many are later cars and I would want an early one. Bonds and Trienkels. Nothing wrong there. Trienkel, again the problem is to find a good one. Most floor replacement cars are wrong and I would not invest in one unless it were correct. A lot more work to run than the two strokes sa regular maintenance required or you will run into probs. French things? Live like a Frenchman and what can possibly be better? Trouble is I think they hunt them in Septeber in the Forest of Dean, which has hills limiting escape velocity.

If I was in the F o D and was to diversify it would be a Goggo 400. Tough, reliable and unusual. The Bentley of Bubblecars. Very hard act to beat. However the Vespa 400 is a good act and French pretty much. Spares? Trienkels do hills and are strangely pretty. Spares? A Bond, why not. As long as it is complete spares should last a fair bit longer. I fear that will consume the budget.

Me, I would buy an old trials car and blat that rat round the lanes and keep the schmitt having condensed the collection of supporting items via considered auction sales.

[messerschmitt]

Al

I've never considered the microcars as an investment - they've been fun and a lifestyle choice - I like the engineering, the quirkiness, the solutions to problems thought out after the cars had hit the roads.

My biggest issue is never being able to afford a Messerschmitt ever again. I was lucky when I bought it - £200 for the car and spares was a bargain and it owes me perhaps £2500 all in in my ownership. Could I sell the favourite car I have ever owned and replace it knowing I will never have another. Investment wise, it has been the best car I have ever bought and perhaps only matched by the £50 Allard my mother has.

I love Goggos,and kept the workshop manual I got off you when the cars were sold to Italy as I always wanted another one.

Funny you should mention 400s as that is what I'd like - there's an American spec one on Car and classic




http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C368428#

and a tidy saloon on Autoscout.


http://www.autoscout24.eu/Details.aspx?id=226175866&cd=634931512000000000&asrc=st

I could do better in terms of price for similar cars if I waited a while and would rather have a manual box than the electric one.

The schmitt itself wouldn't take much to hit the roads again, and there are lots of spares that I need already purchased - four weeks of hard work would see a ratty Kr200 back on the road, and £1000 spent wisely on a new roof, trim set and some other bits would see it looking tidy. She is a matching numbers car with a history stretching back to Testwood Motors and Jack London in Southampton.

Selling my Bond MkC, which needs a lot of work (and has had a lot too) would give me the money for two perfect goggos and a running MkD, with some change left over.

I love the heinkel and it is my favourite 'bubble car' after the Schmitt. Hence why I have owned three Heinkel Trojans. I'd have a newmap solyto, another Mochet or any number of French micros too and they genuinely can still be found for bargain prices.

I see a change as a way of having  three nice cars instead of two that need a lot of work.


messerschmitt kr200 smart roadster fiat 126 bis by messerschmitt owner, on Flickr

[marcus]

Why would you want to sell your 'schmitt?: do you fancy a change or is that because it needs to have big money spent. If you choose to sell it, buying another one later might be tough and could leave you regretting your decision. On the other hand if you sell it and that allows you to have 2 or 3 other cars without financial outlay then the question is will the 2 or 3 car collection be more fun and "useful" than having all your money tied up in the 'Schmitt, and I think the answer could be yes. For example you could have one soft top, one saloon, or one 2 seater and one 4 seater, or one 3 wheeler and one 4 wheeler. Messerschmitts are superb driver's micros, a lot of fun, but do have their limitations.

I suspect whatever we say you will probably already have an idea of what you feel like doing!

[messerschmitt]

I reckon £250 and the work to sort the non starting would see my Schmitt roadworthy. £1000 would see it with a retrim, new hood and a general tarting up. So not a huge amount. It doesn't need extensive bodywork or a rebuild of the engine, just general wear and tear sorted.

I kind of fancy a change but can't quite let go of a car I have owned some 25 years. Hence the thinking out loud.

[Big Al]

American Goggos? I never really went for the larger lights, additional bumpers and possibly the oiling system. It is a way of getting 400 engine. However that engine is a bit of curate egg. It does not really rev well as it has unbalanced pistons, the gudgeon pin being to low in the piston. So hard use equals shorter life. The 300 is really a more durable unit and has a performance close to that of a Schmitt with cheaper bottom end bits than a 400. Sat on spares I can run 400s and not worry.

As to style the Coupe looks great but the Saloon outperforms it in most departments in use. As with all things it is what ever turns you on.

I fell into trading cars and that, of course, makes their value an issue. Now I am not trading and the collection is slowly dispersing as the right offers come in. Eventually a level will be reached where I am owner a small collection doing my thing, probably outside club interference as they cannot forgive or forget. Not my problem.

What is rather beyond value is to find a basically original car which has not been messed about with, preferably in original paint. I have a few. How do you value this? The market tends not to as it is looking for shiny and show. The enthusiast will pay a premium though, however a tricky market to access. I will not sell the Bazzers, black, blue and silver, nor the Cabrio or KR201. You could not replace them despite that they are not the best cars in the world. They have their integrity, history and other than the Cabrio, where I do not know, I am in 3rd to 6th owner status. That will do for me. I do not want to show the cars. In all cases the cars found me and I bought well. Why sell? I still look at other prime cars I should have kept that fitted the same description. Several Goggos and  a Heinkel amongst them. Now I am out of contention as I will not pay the prices.

[marcus]

25 years is a long time so the real consideration is do you think you have had all fun out of it that it can give you? If not you might soon regret selling. If you have and fancy a change (as seems to be the case) then there is no point hanging on to it just because you have had it so long.

I had an MG Midget years ago which I absolutely loved. Great fun, rag top, cheap and easy to run and not a single problem in 6 years and I sold it for what I paid. I had a lot of fun in it AND it was very useful as I used to carry a full drum kit around in it, and take turns relaying the Saxophonist and his horns, then the double-bassist and his double-bass to and from gigs and recordings. The bass sat on the passenger seat (roof down) the bassist sat on the boot and clung on for dear life. Late night in winter I was warm as toast as it had a great heater.

The bassist FROZE, ha ha!

Anyway, about 5 or 6 years after buying it I decided to go to college to study photography and film and I knew I would no longer be able to maintain it in good condition and decided to sell while it was still nice, and I kept half the money to help me through 3 years at college and the other half went on an old Ford Rustcort. The Rustcort served me well for college and two years afterwards. I would one day like another MG, but it's less of a priority than many other things so I am not bothered about it. Basically I do not regret selling it, it was time to change and the right decision was made. I will always have the memories and stories, life goes on!

 

[Big Al]

Quite correct, Marcus. My problem is to have a collectors streak as well. Given I can house the cars I will keep them. However for the rest it is indeed time to move on. Even the solitary Heinkel might go as I doubt I will ever drive it again, been there, done that. As the possible sale price goes up it becomes ever more pressure to sell and re invest in something else that is 'usable'. The schmitts are a special case, for me, as I really like having them round.

I resisted ownership for quite a few years being put off by the behaviour of the Messerschmitt owners back in the early 80's. Mick Leeson eventually persuaded me to keep the one I found 1/2 a mile away and got it going for me, those were the days, and I have not been without one since. Yet through all this time I still find some owners have a very negative attitude which seems rather at odds with what was the prevailing microcar/Burford ethos. Sad to say that attitude seems to have not diminished but spread into other marques. It spoils the fun, and as you rightly analyzed, I think it is time to move on to pastures new where more enjoyment is offered. Add to that cash and money in the bank are both liabilities (Rant available on request) and by default I am currently an investment owner as until or unless a project comes up selling the cars left is pointless unless the offer is attractive. So the net result is I could become the guy I used to hate. A collector who has cars out of use in a nice shed while he plays with other, cheaper, machines. - there is a very nice Citroen for sale for £500, some toy bubblecars are more than that. I cannot get this to make sense anymore unless I join the Campervan movement. 

[messerschmitt]

I too have a collector's streak, hence why the house is full of old stuff - I was in the garage last night and spent 15 minutes or so just looking at my schmitt from all angles.

Am I bored of it? Probably not. Will I ever get bored of it? Probably not! Do I fancy a change? Probably, yes!

There aren't that many British market micros that I haven't owned or driven so I know what I really like now. The schmitt is still there close to the top - with the top being the unaffordable TG500. I like Berkeleys but hate working on them, I would rather the schmitt to an Isetta or a Nobel.

I'd like a Frisky sport, or a scootacar - but feel that each would be a downward step in terms of drivability and dare I say, comfort!

I like the idea of a ratty but rather expensive car - last XK140 I saw was a beat up old wreck that had probably never been off the road since 1956 and I loved that.

Perhaps I just need my mojo back.

Al speaks a lot of sense and I think that comes from driving lots of cars over the years! When I first joined the MOC in about 1983 or 84, I remember the box number hassles of trying to find a car and am glad mine came from a non club source - even in 87 or 88 it was a cheap car. I know, as I was offered £1000 for it by a tiger owner within a month or two of owning it.

[Mark Green]

Ah the FriskySport comfort   6'3" tall 30 years older legs rub the dash supports  Priceless

[Big Al]

I to have driven most Brit market micros. The Scootacar is a candidate but it is noisy. There seem to be question marks about suspension but being heavy and having fiddled with mine it was fine and predictable. Unlike a Schmitt it stops! Unfortunately the prices and availability have put them out of sight with some four owners having getting on for a third of the cars left. Fortunately I have one.  Frisky, sorry not for me, they are not quite 'sorted'. Berkeleys are great when they work. Mine were unreliable and the trike does not do weight on one side. Not too clever on hills either.

So no surprises. It is Goggo, Schmitt and Scootacar here. I would have a Janus but I do not want a jigsaw puzzle and once again complete ones seem to be more money than several something elses or a bigger something else.  It would be fun to Leesonise the Heinkel with the mods he was looking at. Get that reliable with a bomb proof bottom end and they can really kick bottom in the battle of bubbles, though the front suspension issues were never satisfactory resolved. And, of course, I can recommend the old Type 70 which will burn of nigh on all comers including the Tiger. Also got the makings of two of those, will they ever get done? Go bigger, has to be NSU Sport Prinz, or squeezing a point, the Wankel Spyder. The Sport Prinz is not a dear car either, if you can find a good one.