Author Topic: Nobel 200  (Read 10092 times)


Inaheinkel

  • Quite Chatty
  • ****
  • Posts: 127
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 08:33:37 AM »
Hi

This looks like a great start if you wanted to do a rebuild.

John
Heinkel Kabine, Cursor

blob

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 01:19:44 PM »
Almost tempted myself. I'm curious how much one in this condition, minus an engine will fetch, prices seem to be rising on these.

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 08:51:57 PM »
Hi Blob. Back from my hols now. Do you know who the owner of this one is? I was wondering if it was the former Nobel register keeper Kieth Wagstaff as he is from this part of the world and doesnt have an engine for his car. Surely you are not seriously considering adding this one to your collection of dismantled cars?!

Chris Thomas

  • Administrator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • old Banana
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2008, 03:04:15 PM »
Dear Blob

If you do get the Nobel and are not able to get the right engine to make it original, I think it may be possible to shoehorn in a Yamaha R1 engine, or a Hayabusa engine, which are readily available. They both have chain drives off the gearbox, but you may need to change the cog size to cope with the extra body weight.

The sound of the four cylinder engine will be a little different to a normal Nobel 200, as will the handling at maximum speed. The fuel consumption and insurance rating will also rise.

I feel sure that if these engines had been available in the 1950's they would have been used to power the Nobel.

Food for thought.

Chris Thomas (!)

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 04:44:11 PM »
Hi Chris [not Malcom!] Why the Nobel/Fulda was so underpowered by being given the sachs engine has been debated for many years, its not that more powerful engines were unavailable at the time, I have often wondered how one would perform if fitted with the villiers twin as used in the Frisky. I think the general consensus is that it was all down to price so even if four cyinder Yamaha bike engine etc were around they would still not have been used. I'm not one who likes to see classic microcars fitted with unoriginal engines but have always felt that if ever there was a candidate for an engine upgrade its got to be the Nobel! I dont know if you have ever driven a nobel Chris but the handling is just about adaquate for the speeds it can achieve but the braking is very poor so I agree with you here, that a major upgrade in handling and braking would be essentual or it would be a death trap. From the engine data base you are working on, were there any other larger twins equipt with dynastarts of the period that could have been used in the Nobel? I can only think of the Villiers and the Excellsior/ Anzarni as used in the Berkeley, the goggo is a great engine but the makers so I'm told did not sell it for use in other vehicles other than there own. Just imagine how much better the TG500 would have been if the request for the tuned 400 goggo motor had been granted! 

Chris Thomas

  • Administrator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • old Banana
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 03:04:35 PM »
Dear Bob

Thank you for your always well informed comments regarding the Nobel.

Sadly/thankfully I have never squeezed my silth like form into a Nobel to test drive it, but I can tell from the power to weight ratio that it might be a little under powered up hills and with me it it may never have moved at all.

The point of the humour was that the Nobel appears to have quite a large engine bay into which almost any other small engine should fit, and some of the modern motorcycle engines are very compact and light, that at some stage the present crop of engines will begin to wear out and possibly become impossible to obtain spares for, and therefore what might be a good replacement. Vespa two stroke and Honda 4 stroke engines seem to be the best bet.

I am told that the development of the 50cc two stroke engine is close to the end of the possible development work that can be done on it and with emmission regulations 4 stroke engines will become more common, with small motor bikes and scooters there must be one or two that have the power and low fuel consumption caracteristics that would be ideal for Microcars. However the original engine will always be the restorers preference.

A motorcycling friend was telling me that most of the high reving Japanese bike engines only last 50 000 miles before they expire. With that in mind it must be possible to detune the engine to give more power at lower revs and by halving the revs make the engines last twice as long.

The list of engines has started and at the moment I am researching the Ydral engines, which I know you have an interest in. Would I be right in thinking that for the Inter the engine is like the Nobel, under powered? Having watched the Inter from the Musee Henri Malartre struggle to get up a shallow hill two up whilst out on a road run, and listening to other peoples comments, I would like your comments on this? On the same run I followed a Messershmitt Tiger which was very quick, which shows what a good engine can do for a small vehicle.


Must get some fee earning work done now

Chris Thomas


Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 06:48:51 PM »
Hi Chris, this one is turning into a good discussion! To pick up on a few of your comments, about the modern two stroke engines, I was under the impression that there was a cut off date beyond which no more will be allowed to be manufactured, my guess is that all the old used engines will be at a premium. The modern engines are already finding there way into the rear of Heinkels and schmitts much to the horror of folk like myself, its inevitable because for many its an easy option and usually improves the performance of some of the cars, our argument is that if you do not like the characteristics of a classic vehicle , buy something else and pass the car on to someone who appreciates it for what it is. Engines never really wear out to the extent that they cannot be rebuilt especially if you are determined and can spend money on them, thats why most vintage cars still have the correct motors in them, its usually cars of lower value that end up with replacement engines in them and its my hope that as the classic microcars get older and rise in value the owners will preserve there integrity. I dare say some will disagree but thats my take on it all for what its worth. You raise an interesting point about whether an Inter is underpowered with the Yrdal 175, my latest car is still unsorted as regards the tuning etc so is nothing to go on but as I remember my old one it wasnt so much underpowered but suffered much for only having three gears, it shot up druids hill at Brands Hatch at the TG500 40th anniversary bash with just me in it but when I drove it two up at Story Germany it desperately needed another gear between second and third on the steeper hills. Its lighter than a schmitt and half the weight of a Nobel so I would say its quite usable with the 175 motor. The reason why the one you saw in France was struggling is probably more to do with the fact that we cant get the oversized pistons and bore the barrels out, they are an odd shape[ this applies to the earlier L49's, the AJ55 can be run with a yamaha piston, my old car had a rebore and new piston hence quite good performance] Most L49's are running on original pistons and are getting pretty worn now, I think this is why my Torpedo is a little sluggish as well. Its my intention to get a batch of pistons made at some time. About the TG500's, they can certainly shift! However most owners will agree that the engine build quality was very poor and they were not produced long enough to develop it. Have you been in touch with Club Ydral? I was a member for a while but naturally the news letter is in French and the main thrust is motorcycles so I allowed it to lapse. I would love to hear the results of your research on ydrals, I hope you get further than I did! Cheers, Bob
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 06:59:34 PM by Bob Purton »

Chris Thomas

  • Administrator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • old Banana
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 09:38:01 PM »
Dear Bob

By the sound of it, it is just thee and mee interested in this tread

As I understand it Vespa has stopped selling the traditional classic Vespa scooter which has manual gears, but they have others with auto gears and they just about pass. 50 cc or smaller two strokes are not affected by the legislation.

That means that the classic Vespa will become a collectors piece. The Piaggio scooter with two front wheels is a four stroke with auto transmission. I was taken ( hurled ) through the streets of Nice on one this summer and I can vouch for the fact that it is very sure footed on corners, two up!!!!

Regarding the lack of grunt in some vehicles. As you know I drive a Honda insight and I love it for the fact that at low revs the combination of the electric motor and the petrol engine compliment each other so well with the electric motor having most torque at low revs making the combined power and torque curves almost flat through the rev range. I have seen a do it yourself set up (from the USA) whereby you connect an electric motor to an additional pulley on the front of the engine and when you need more power you turn up the electric motor, and on over run it recharges a big battery. Now this idear could just get anybody with an underpowered engine over the problem of hills. Fix an additional cog in the chain drive attached to a small electric motor and a battery and some magic circuitry and Bobs your uncle. (sorry about that).

Talking of Inters, I noticed that your vehicle has two control cables running under the suspension, and on the five others I have seen the cables go between the front suspension and the body. The cables on your Inter look as if they are vulnerable to being damaged by the road surface, you may wish to research this a bit more!

I do hope this additional bit of info is of interest.

Chris Thomas

marcus

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2676
    • http://marcusdemowbray.wordpress.com/
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 10:17:37 PM »
Bob, Chris: it's not just "thee and mee" on this thread, you have both come up with very interesting stuff here.
Just remember: as one door closes behind you, another slams in your face

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 11:06:14 PM »
I didnt realise that the 50cc stuff slips in under the radar. I'm glad because there is nothing like the buzz of a little stroker! About the Inter cable routing, I think I understand but am thrown by you saying the suspension as all the suspension is concealed inside the mudguards so I guess you mean the rack and pinion cover. On my first Inter the cables were original and they did go over the domed rack and pinion cover but I think there were a couple of early type P clips to hold them up, something I havent got around to making yet but yes they do look a bit flappy at the moment dont they! They could be squeezed up and under the axles but this would put a couple of quite tight bends in the cables so I prefer the other route. As I am always saying , no two Inters are the same! I saw one of those twin front wheeled scooter thingies the other day for the first time, I think they are amazing! My interest however firmly rests with the 1950's stuff.   Here is a shot of the underside from a scooter mag, the floor pan is completely different to mine which has a channel section running along the centre length ways that all the cable go through in a nice bend free line but you can see that with the rack cover removed the routing is still over the axles rather than under. Interestingly the gear change on this one is by cable where as all others known are by rod. No two are the same!!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 08:44:42 AM by Bob Purton »

Chris Thomas

  • Administrator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • old Banana
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 10:02:14 AM »
Dear Bob

You are correct I did mean over and under the front axle rather than the suspension. Good image of the underside of an Inter.

Taking up your point about no two Inters being the same, I was talking to Pierrick Chavatte about his Inter that was on show at the French Rally in August and he pointed out that the hanger for the rubber loops on his front suspension had been modified to make them approx 50mm higher than the standard position, requiring longer rubber loops, which presumably gives a longer suspension travel and a softer ride, but does change the front mudgurd design.

I noticed the same thing with the starting procedures, some had a rip chord in the back corner (ideal for pulling a back muscule) and others had one between the drivers legs (could be painful if the chord broke).

I did suggest to Pierrick ( who may be reading this thread) that as he only lives in Lille we should all (members of Rumcar) jump on a Eurostar (when the tunnel has been repaired) and come and look at his collection of 8 microcars and 30 scooters. He said that he worked at weekends so that would not be easy to organise, but not impossible.

I tried the same thing with Denis De Sousa who lives in the Jura and he was horrified that he would have to clean and tidy everything first, and besides he was a long way from a TGV station.

Chris Thomas

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 01:42:38 PM »
Hi Chris. The more you mention the French rally the more I regret not being able to get there! I knew that most of the French owned inters had broken gyrostarters but didnt realise that they had compromised to the extent of condecending to pull chords! Both the areas inside the car you mention are where the gyrostarter levers were opperated from so it looks like they have used the same apperture. The evidence suggests that all Inters came out of the factory fitted with a gyrostarter so this variation would appear to be not so much a variation but a botch up. We owners really need to get together and get the gyrostarter parts remanifactured! I'm familiar with Pierricks car, infact I made the suspension boomerangs for him or to be more exact, the previous owner. I'm not sure why someone raised the upper rubber band post, proberbly out of need during a nieman ring famine, it must have created more problems than it solved though! Anyway Chris, stand by for more so far unpublished Inter pics landing on your door mat in the next few days!

Chris Thomas

  • Administrator
  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • old Banana
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 04:27:44 PM »
Dear Bob

It is strange that this thread started out about the Nobel 200 and has been hijacked.

Regarding the Inter starting procedure I only saw one being started as the others did not come on the road run The sight of Bernard Vaireaux laying accross the car with his right foot on the accellerator while pulling at something in the opposite rear corner sticks in my memory. It was during discussions that the alternative starting lever position at the front was discussed. so I must admit now to having not seen it personnally.

I wish I knew who the other Inter Owner was as he also owned the Atlas and a realy fast red Vespa 400  and according to his very good looking daughter, had many other interesting cars as well. It did help that her English was excellent.

Have you had any reaction from readers since your Inter was featured in Practical Classics? I look forward to receiving the additional images.

Chris Thomas

Bob Purton

  • Prolific Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5041
    • Inter microcar
Re: Nobel 200
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 05:29:42 PM »
Ahh maybe you saw him tugging at the gyrostarter lever after all. There is a slot in the rear firewall on the left hand side. I always thought it was a daft place to put it because as you say one needs to touch the accelerator at the same time. My car has a blanking plate over this slot and the lever moved to the front left of the drivers seat. Reactions from the article? Only from friends, micky taking. I picked up the phone last night to a voice saying "Is that Mr Smug?" Apparently they think I have a very smug expression standing next to the car in Jeans workshop doorway! Quite honestly I was expecting no reaction at all from the readers of these sort of mags as its not an MG Triumph or a Jag.  Tony asked me to do a little something for the imminent RCN so we will see how it goes down with our lot. My main concern is that I have nowhere to keep the car , I plan to extend the workshop so that I can start on my next car, the top secret one that everyone knows about but that is month away. I think I will be folding the front wheels up again and returning it the workshop.