The 7th Peel P50 ever built is for sale on ebay!

[P50]

I ask because the seller claims the car was a wreck with the chassis number barely visible.  

The above simply doesn't add up.  If the P50 was a wreck then the chassis plate sitting on the steering bracket would have been sound. (unless all he recovered was a bit of a bracket and a chassis tag?)  

Dom's Trident bottom half was sitting for approx 3 decades with the chassis plate exposed to the elements.  Perfectly readable and reusable.  

Good luck to whoever gets it.....

  

[Big Al]

Not a problem owing a fake. As long as you're aware you're paying for one.   Paperwork is nice but simple provenance suffices.  Simple as that.  That aside it's a very very nice car with all the correct bits. 

Mind you, caveat emptor in all areas at all times. Do your research et al...     However Mr Hewett would do well to be aware of caveat actor....    as I'm sure he'll be reading our discussion avidly...     these things usually end in tears.

There is a problem owning a fake. It relates to how it was made. Chum has looked at Chevrons. A firm has been making replica Chevrons for sometime. Another company has ownership of the world manufacturing rights to Chevron. It is in court now I believe as clearly one lot has infringe the rights of the other. Damages will be in order. What is the status of the fake Chevrons after this? Certainly they will probably be registered incorrectly, are not historic etc etc. Since the original records were not utilised to martial what went on the legal systems will step in to correct it. Surely this has to effect the value of the genuine fakes now marked as such as it will increase the value of the real cars. Knock on insurance problems etc etc.
Secondly the market might absorb 100 fakes now. What if interest wains. If you own a fake which you have lavished money on unfortunately your car will suffer a larger drop in price than a real car. Market forces are savage in such situations. Add to this the odd millionaire buying into Peels you have someone who can afford to be a bastard and expend more money than it is worth to get someone he thinks stitched him up. Simple for them as they can make the court action so big you cannot afford to defend youself. Justice is a lot more like poker than about being fair.

Buyerr beware, yes indeed. But if the seller lies or attempts to obscure the facts of the deal he can be taken to court. It is simply, illegal. This does not matter if you know the facts or not. So if you sell a fake be aware that a claim can pass back down the chain of owners. It is analogous to selling a stolen car. You handled dodgy goods. The only reason this does not happen often is that it costs money to do. However never bank on the legal system not reacting. Also since this car is mainly made of new parts it may attract the interest of trading standards. The whole area of selling iffy motors is a minfield and it really is not worth getting involved with it as even if the legal system does not react the uncivilised system has been known too and is a lot cheaper as well as hurting more! I am lucky as when trading I never knowingly had a stolen car. I was always open about what was for sale. Result no cases. That is not to say that all buyers will say so as people do not listen or are greedy assuming they are smarter then everyone else. Those sort would automatically blame someone else anyway. It is one of these types that will probably buy Mr Hewett's Peel and if so jolly good show to both of them and Mr Hewett can pocket his profit, a job well done. If that is unfair it is also life. Off course the data is there to combat part of his sale stance ALLEDGEDLY but who is going to mount the challenge. It should be the Peel owners protecting their marque from fakes. No good moaning after the event.

[P50]

How can Peel owners protect their marque from fakes? Bit of a tall order..?

I don't care how many reps there are.   Nothing to do directly with me.  I suppose you do have to be an expert to suss what's kosher but a few calls etc should establish what's what...   I asked about my P50 and Trident and got the same answer. A bit stinky but correct.

I think you're right about miilionaires though being the punters of the future.  I couldn't afford my cars (or my house come to think of it) today.       

Finally I wouldn't say trousering a profit through flogging a rep as though an IOM car is a "job well done".  In my books that makes him a shyster.   

[Jean]

There is currently  Peel P50 for sale on Ebay Item no. 180535423080 which the seller, a Mr J Hewett  from Norfolk claims to have been restored from an original wreck.
Having taken advice from  several long standing microcar enthusiasts who know far more about the subject of the originality of Peels than I. it has been decided that the following statement should be made:
The Register of Unusual Microcars  wish to  warn any prospective purchaser that the car, chassis number D507, registration no. LVG396B is not on the  Peel  Section of the Register.

The known facts suggest it is a new replica.

It was first registered on 1st July 2010  in Norfolk.

The seller has been unable to supply any documentary evidence to prove that it is an original car, (paperwork or pre-restoration photographs etc). therefore we urge all interested buyers to proceed with caution.

This car appears to be a high quality replica, very close to the original in most respects, however it would be unfair if someone were to buy the car for a large sum of money thinking it was built in Peel, IOM in the1960s.

Jean

[Big Al]

How can Peel owners protect their marque from fakes? Bit of a tall order..?

I don't care how many reps there are.   Nothing to do directly with me.  I suppose you do have to be an expert to suss what's kosher but a few calls etc should establish what's what...   I asked about my P50 and Trident and got the same answer. A bit stinky but correct.

I think you're right about millionaires though being the punters of the future.  I couldn't afford my cars (or my house come to think of it) today.       

Finally I wouldn't say trousering a profit through flogging a rep as though an IOM car is a "job well done".  In my books that makes him a shyster.   

In one message you say its none of your business and you do not care about it and yet the guy is a shyster so you must care. Sounds like you want it both ways without the effort of responsibility. Very British and a reason we are in our financial mess and rather Spot Botish. I can think of plenty of things I could do about it but I have no motivation as I do not own a Peel nor do I desire to particularly without effort. I always enjoy a successful scam if I am not involved as it shows imagination and an element of devious skill which deserves reward if people are stupid enough to let it happen.
The clear question is who owns the construction rights? Then we have factory records. Both form a basis of exposing fakes. When looking for my nicked Messerschmitt several arrests resulted from my watching Messerschmitt adverts on eBay for a few months and reporting clearly devious adverts to the police who reacted. Not sure if that is counted as difficult but even if so it demonstraits apathy from Peel owners rewarded by lots of fakes that have to effect the value of the mass of Peels for good or ill. However lets be clear that there a fakes and fakes. An accurate fake can be passed off but a new body underpinned by differing machanicals is only going to fool a twit. There is no challenge to getting money out of twits but to gain a deal from a 'expert/collector shows skill. Bon chance Mr Hewett, looks like you free and clear.

[Bob Purton]

So what you are saying is Thumbs up to cheats, liers and thieves just so long as they are good at what they do?

[P50]

How can Peel owners protect their marque from fakes? Bit of a tall order..?

I don't care how many reps there are.   Nothing to do directly with me.  I suppose you do have to be an expert to suss what's kosher but a few calls etc should establish what's what...   I asked about my P50 and Trident and got the same answer. A bit stinky but correct.

I think you're right about millionaires though being the punters of the future.  I couldn't afford my cars (or my house come to think of it) today.        

Finally I wouldn't say trousering a profit through flogging a rep as though an IOM car is a "job well done".  In my books that makes him a shyster.    

In one message you say its none of your business and you do not care about it and yet the guy is a shyster so you must care. Sounds like you want it both ways without the effort of responsibility. Very British and a reason we are in our financial mess and rather Spot Botish. I can think of plenty of things I could do about it but I have no motivation as I do not own a Peel nor do I desire to particularly without effort. I always enjoy a successful scam if I am not involved as it shows imagination and an element of devious skill which deserves reward if people are stupid enough to let it happen.
The clear question is who owns the construction rights? Then we have factory records. Both form a basis of exposing fakes. When looking for my nicked Messerschmitt several arrests resulted from my watching Messerschmitt adverts on eBay for a few months and reporting clearly devious adverts to the police who reacted. Not sure if that is counted as difficult but even if so it demonstraits apathy from Peel owners rewarded by lots of fakes that have to effect the value of the mass of Peels for good or ill. However lets be clear that there a fakes and fakes. An accurate fake can be passed off but a new body underpinned by differing machanicals is only going to fool a twit. There is no challenge to getting money out of twits but to gain a deal from a 'expert/collector shows skill. Bon chance Mr Hewett, looks like you free and clear.

What utter drivel.  The facts are thus.

What is the crime in contructing a replica?  of anything? C type, D type or whatever?  if you cannot afford the real thing then a facsimile is utterly fine.  Closer to original to the better.

HOWEVER WHEN YOU ATTEMPT TO PASS OFF YOUR GOODS AS BONE FIDE FOR DECEIPTFULL REWARD THEN YOU ARE A THEIF,FRAUDSTER AND SHYSTER.

What are we to do AL? ban replicas? What imbecile would buy an AC Cobra made of plastic with Cortina running gear thinking it was a Shelby '65?.    

"I always enjoy a successful scam if I am not involved as it shows imagination and an element of devious skill which deserves reward if people are stupid enough to let it happen." 

I suppose there is something to be said for a man who engineers his scam so well.  You can be good at what you do.  It's not laudable if it involves blatant deception.  Do you admire a highly profitable benefit scam ring?  Keep paying those taxes old boy.   

If's one's intelligent then it's not hard to hoodwink mere mortals.     Getting ripped off's a fact of life for some but I subscribe to karma.    Darius Guppy got tumbled. Lord Brocket too.  

Fools whilst being fools do not automatically deserve to be ripped off.  With the likes of you thus after deriving pleasure from their misery. No true clued up expert/collector would buy this Peel. Only a novice..


Perhaps the UK's in this "financial mess" due to your angle rather than mine.  Screw 'em over. If you get away with it, job's a good'n.  

Nice.

[Bob Purton]

Hello?? Lord Lucan's turned up!!!

[Big Al]

So what you are saying is Thumbs up to cheats, liers and thieves just so long as they are good at what they do?

No. However a good scam is clever in the same way as inventing a left hand bivalve whump is. One can celebrate the cleverness without applauding the outcome. It is unfortunate that many people choose to use their cleverness to obtain money off other people by trickery than actually produce a product of worth and sell it. The Peel fits somewhere in between here as it is a product but it is not as real as would be suggested. The clever bit is it has apparently gained a registration. I can understand most of this save the last bit as that is the bit that 'legitimises' the car. The RUMcar statement goes someway to combating that but the question remains how was this achieved. If I were an owner of a Peel of any type this is the key question to be answered and I cannot see how owners can ignore it and say it does not effect them. Clearly it does.

[Bob Purton]

Quote .....  "It is one of these types that will probably buy Mr Hewett's Peel and if so jolly good show to both of them and Mr Hewett can pocket his profit, a job well done. "


Still sounds like you condone the crime if you think the buyer is an idiot.

[P50]

So what you are saying is Thumbs up to cheats, liers and thieves just so long as they are good at what they do?

No. However a good scam is clever in the same way as inventing a left hand bivalve whump is. One can celebrate the cleverness without applauding the outcome. It is unfortunate that many people choose to use their cleverness to obtain money off other people by trickery than actually produce a product of worth and sell it. The Peel fits somewhere in between here as it is a product but it is not as real as would be suggested. The clever bit is it has apparently gained a registration. I can understand most of this save the last bit as that is the bit that 'legitimises' the car. The RUMcar statement goes someway to combating that but the question remains how was this achieved. If I were an owner of a Peel of any type this is the key question to be answered and I cannot see how owners can ignore it and say it does not effect them. Clearly it does.

I agree an elaborate scam is interesting and scams are as old as time itself.

A fake car does not affect me.  If anything it will push prices through the roof on an og IOM car.    It's pretty easy to see what Peels are missing on the register. Then go "ill have D107" please.   But who's inspected it as an approved member of a club thus approved by the DVLA?  what happens if D107 turns up like Doms E149?

About 4 years ago a Trident came up on Ebay that had lost its chassis plate and all paperwork. Neville's car. But it's a proper two strokes car.  It's prob E128 or 129. But you cant go dishing out speculative number even on a real Peel. In case the other one turns up.

D107 is a fake.  If he told the truth and stated it is as near to an IOM Peel you can get then no real problem.  But he's lying.  Then spewing arrogant crap about if you're a bore or want original air in the tyres.   Then to be all passe'  about a couple minor issues like it's a total snide!

But if he did have a buff log book and og chassis plate then what then?!  

Oh yeah and I think I saw lord Lucan in a P50 going up the kings road! 
      

[Big Al]

P50 has it in the last posting. I could not possibly have made such comments as a none Peel person even if I thought them (after House of Cards). Opinion on affect is something one can differ on but the facts do not alter.

Bob, if he is an idiot then he deserves what he looses whether I condon it or not. Much of our economy is based on idiots buying things they should not. Even I have been an idiot on occasions, which I do not condon! From Hewett's point of view the bigger and wealthier the idiot the better for him, simples, eeck!

[Peelpower]

Ups, the P50 was takeing off ebay. What happens ! 

[Big Al]

Below is debate not argueing before you wade into it, or not, thinking it an answer to P50 position on the original subject. Basically matter arising.

Going back to the topic of creating a fake/replica. It is an interesting situation. If you were to attempt to replicate a design protected by law you will run the risk of getting sued. As in the Chevron case even though the original company had long gone the world construction rights remained live and we have a court case. I am not sure what the case was with the AC Cobra but AC still exist so presumably they chose not to persue those who first made replica Cobras. There are many differing versions now and several are reasonably accurate while others are actually better than the real thing having incorporated modern technology into the resulting cars on the road. It would appear the situation with Peels is analogous to the second case. However what would happen if an heir of Cyril Cannel turned up with a right to produce the Peel cars and a budget to go to law? We revert to the first position I guess. I think one person might have a substantial defence case that he had been in the possession of the technology to build cars long enough to have gained production by right but I really do not know if this works on rights, it does not with books for instance.
I therefore maintain that to make a replica is a calculated risk in investment terms. However to muddy the waters if you have the identity of a car destroyed physically it is possible to rebuild that car back to a functioning machine. This is not illegal though there have been disagreements over registration once finished on occasions and the original number has been denied to the car while the chassis number has been accepted. There have been cases of cars being rebuilt only to find that there are two of them.... off to court we go. But the key element would seem to be that you need to hold the chassis number and preferably proving paperwork. You could argue that a rebuilt car and a replica can be identical save for the attachment of an original chassis plate but one is a 'real' car the other not.
As we rightly define the real illegality proceedable by anyone is to make false statements about a car to sell it. Effectively passing the fake off as a genuine car etc. However every good replica made can at some point result in this occurring even if the originator was clear he was creating a fake for his own satisfaction. That is the real danger of these cars as they pass through several owners each changing the history a little enhancing the credentials and thus hopefully the value. A favoured route is an auction as many a tale is told on auction notes. If done well they cannot be bounced and the auction legitimises the history. I have seen this done in the trade and had close shaves with several wrong 'uns created out of the dust into very convincing machines which upon investigation are nigh on worthless. I will always take the view the fakes effect prices. This might be to increase them but equally it can depress them, not least if it becomes impossible to tell real from false. An investor either needs an expert to advise him or he cannot buy with confidence. There are easier investments around. So just because Peels are hot now does not mean they will go up for ever. There could be payback.
None of this effects the guy who just wants a Peel with a Vespa engine in it and the wrong size wheels. His only worry is how to get a registration. He is not fooling anyone and is not trying to. However the system of registration actually encourage him to look to try and gain one of the original IDs as it is a simpler way to gain a registration avoiding tests, paperwork and Spot Bots. So the system in a way conspires to encourage folk to gain original registrations for fakes which is counter to what it should be doing, unless we accept Big Brother says you cannot have a weird car if you want one. Thus we have the value of keeping accurate registers of rare and easy to replicate cars in the public domain as the room for the faker is cut to a minimium if there is clear information available. Sadly this does not happen for various reasons, not least legal, so the buyer is placed in a rather weak position and a clever faker in a pretty strong one if he is devious enough to access the restricted record database.
Be interested in debate as I am in no way saying the above is correct as I do not know for sure.

[Jim Janecek]

I would like to know what the procedure is in the UK for getting a vehicle like this registered as a 1964 vehicle given that it has no paperwork to support it.

Is a fake ID plate all that is necessary or does there need to be some other sort of affidavit from some organization that gives their "stamp of approval" to the vehicle allowing it to be registered?

I know the procedures in the USA (there are several loopholes) but not for the UK.

I should also point out that in the SECOND listing on eBay, Hewett changed the description and never mentioned it as a 1964 model year vehicle, just that it was "registered as a 1964".