Author Topic: Tyre mixing  (Read 4486 times)

Bob Purton

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Tyre mixing
« on: February 29, 2012, 09:44:51 AM »
I was chatting to a seasoned Isetta driver the other day[three wheelers] and he
recommended using a pair of radials on the front but keeping a 520 crossply on
the rear wheel. He says he finds this is the best set up. I'm not all together
sure its legal but was wondering if any other British drivers had tried it or
had anything to say about it? I can see one advantage, it would restore the
correct top speed, the radial I have on the rear is a smaller overall diameter
thus slightly gearing the car down. Any observations?


steven mandell

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Re: Tyre mixing
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 01:29:22 PM »
Well I'm not a British driver, and my Isettas have 4 wheels, but I have acquainted myself enough with the driving dynamics of 2 in front and 1 out back three wheelers well enough to report the following:   You want to choose a tire combination that will allow the front end to wash out before the rear wheel sliding, out around a corner to minimize lateral weight transfer to the single wheeled axle, as that is the axle that possess the least ability to resist roll.
Therefore tire height and width should be reduced on the front end to produce a smaller contact patch that will more readily lose traction than the single rear wheel if that is possible.
To some degree, the same effect can be achieved by raising rear tire pressure- sometimes as high as double the front pressure- let your backside seat of the pants be your guide as to how much higher to make the rear tire pressure.   The higher rear pressure  and the resultant stiffer sidewall in the rear tire also creates the additional benefit of increasing the roll Resistance at the rear axle.  You can demo this for yourself by standing alongside your single rear wheel and pushing sideways near the top of your car while watching it's sidewall.  You will undoubtedly notice that as you rock your car sideways, the sidewall on the side that weight is being transferred to bulges outward momentarily in reaction to this.  You will also notice that this effect increases significantly at lower pressures, and decreases proportionately at higher pressures.
Considering all the above, you will want to install the widest stickiest tire with the lowest and stiffest sidewall at the rear of the vehicle, and pump it up to a significantly higher pressure to boot.  Radial tires usually have significantly stiffer sidewalls, and therefore should be preferred at this location.
 You also want the skinniest front tires running lower pressures to encourage wash out prior to the rear ends performance of same.  Bias ply tires are typically more likely to exhibit this tendency.   So it seems that I have put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak,  in that I have reversed your friend's recommendation. 
My self modified HMV Freeway and prototype Badsey Bullet both successfully manifest the ideologies to an extreme in that they are equipped with  a tire size differential of plus 3 and plus 5" respectively when comparing the tire sizes at the rear to the fronts.
Perhaps your friend's recommendation was more influenced by availability of conventionally sized tires, and reasons of ride character, rather than overall cornering, handling and safety in avoiding roll over/ loss of controll.

Bob Purton

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Re: Tyre mixing
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 02:07:26 PM »
Well that more or less reflects my first thoughts on it Steven but has anyone out there with a 3 wheeler tried it?

Big Al

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Re: Tyre mixing
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 08:45:06 AM »
Well I'm not a British driver, and my Isettas have 4 wheels, but I have acquainted myself enough with the driving dynamics of 2 in front and 1 out back three wheelers well enough to report the following:   You want to choose a tire combination that will allow the front end to wash out before the rear wheel sliding, out around a corner to minimize lateral weight transfer to the single wheeled axle, as that is the axle that possess the least ability to resist roll.
Therefore tire height and width should be reduced on the front end to produce a smaller contact patch that will more readily lose traction than the single rear wheel if that is possible.
To some degree, the same effect can be achieved by raising rear tire pressure- sometimes as high as double the front pressure- let your backside seat of the pants be your guide as to how much higher to make the rear tire pressure.   The higher rear pressure  and the resultant stiffer sidewall in the rear tire also creates the additional benefit of increasing the roll Resistance at the rear axle.  You can demo this for yourself by standing alongside your single rear wheel and pushing sideways near the top of your car while watching it's sidewall.  You will undoubtedly notice that as you rock your car sideways, the sidewall on the side that weight is being transferred to bulges outward momentarily in reaction to this.  You will also notice that this effect increases significantly at lower pressures, and decreases proportionately at higher pressures.
Considering all the above, you will want to install the widest stickiest tire with the lowest and stiffest sidewall at the rear of the vehicle, and pump it up to a significantly higher pressure to boot.  Radial tires usually have significantly stiffer sidewalls, and therefore should be preferred at this location.
 You also want the skinniest front tires running lower pressures to encourage wash out prior to the rear ends performance of same.  Bias ply tires are typically more likely to exhibit this tendency.   So it seems that I have put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak,  in that I have reversed your friend's recommendation. 
My self modified HMV Freeway and prototype Badsey Bullet both successfully manifest the ideologies to an extreme in that they are equipped with  a tire size differential of plus 3 and plus 5" respectively when comparing the tire sizes at the rear to the fronts.
Perhaps your friend's recommendation was more influenced by availability of conventionally sized tires, and reasons of ride character, rather than overall cornering, handling and safety in avoiding roll over/ loss of controll.

That would be a set of theory and practice with which I agree.

Schmitts need the best tyres on the rear. You can put cheaper tyres on the front. The issue on these cars is to find the 'cheapest' tyre that has good enough rubber not to lock up when braking hard. Clearly the rear tyre needs to be even better. See Heiko Panzer wheels and wider tyres being used on the rear in an effort to achieve that.

The three wheeled Isetta is a bit of a one off. It is oddly balanced by the driver opposing the engine or with a lump of iron in RHD form. Its steering is, err, complicated and not well balanced, see need for steering dampers on some cars. It runs on odd rims in an effort to centralise the rear wheel. A performance chassis it is not. As such I would think some experimentation might be needed to find the optimum set up given the paucity of tyre choice these days. I suspect BMW did this work back in the day knowing the car was a bit of a compromise to marketing forces, a cheap car being more important that its ultimate performance, so copying them as much as possible should be a start. 10 inch tyres still come in slightly differing diameters and profiles.

As to fitting bigger tyres for additional speed to standard, not the question asked here, I think then as with most microcars the answer is 'You need another sort of car'.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs

AndrewG

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Re: Tyre mixing
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 06:37:04 PM »
Radial fronts and cross/bias-ply rear is an illegal combination in a four-wheeler (it can produce oversteer in emergency situations that the typical driver is not thought capable of controlling).

I don't know if that law applies to three-wheelers too, though I imagine it may.

Big Al

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Re: Tyre mixing
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 08:40:01 PM »
Radial fronts and cross/bias-ply rear is an illegal combination in a four-wheeler (it can produce oversteer in emergency situations that the typical driver is not thought capable of controlling).

I don't know if that law applies to three-wheelers too, though I imagine it may.

Interestingly this law was before front wheel drive was at all common. The drive and weight distribution make a huge difference. However laws tend to be to cover all so I suspect mixing is a no no whatever.
Messerschmitt set, Goggo Darts, Heinkel 175, Fiat Jolly, Autobianchi, Fairthorpe Electron Minor, Borgward, Isuzu Trooper
Citroen BX 17TZD & GTI 16v
Held - MG Magnette ZB & 4/44
For sale - Vellam Isetta, Bamby, AC Type 70, Velorex, Church Pod, Reliant Mk5, KR200,  Saab 96, Bellemy Trials, Citroen BXs