Author Topic: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?  (Read 379956 times)

steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2014, 11:37:09 PM »
It is my full intention to outdo your chicanery in the development of a unique front suspension for my AC Trident.
I plan on using the wide based  stock  A arm that functions like a swing arm, as the bottom member of an unequal length double wishbone set up, with sway bar possibilities.
This is being perused to hopefully allow the front wheels to maintain optimal camber angles with the road during different phases of wheel travel.
Using "normal" engineering practice, the pivots for the upper links would have to located substantially higher up, in the interior of the vehicle, and would cause the A arms to crush my thighs upon normal suspension movement, if I was ever dumb enough to enter the meat crusher in the first place.
My product of chicanery will have an even more unlikely appearance than yours, but will hopefully distinguish itself as the most effective front suspension ever put in a Peel, and will, unlike your own creation, be as light as reasonably possible.
Different strokes for different folks. 8)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 11:39:19 PM by steven mandell »

Peel replica, Steve Fisk

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2014, 12:02:55 AM »
I hope you do outdo me as then I won't be the odd one out , I've seen a replica trident with a decent wishbone travel but it did have a single wish bone with a damper on it so different to your plan , when it was at stand still it was impressive to bounce the front end till the wheel went in the arch but on a narrow car with a person in it I could imagine the damper would depress going round a corner and the car flip but what do I know as a hairdresser from Hertfordshire haha

steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2014, 01:03:10 AM »
At the moment wrestling with other macro micro problems.
Like how to get this half axle and sprocket retaining mechanism off of my 1968 Arola, so I can flip it around and reroute the hand lever operated cable to drive chain assembly to give a usefull hand propelled reversing capability to the vehicle.
It comes with a 2 speed 47 cc Saxonette powerplant and the usually disconnected aforementioned hand actuated ratcheting pedal mechanism that allows forward motion.  But this is totally useless, as if the engine stops working you'd  rather push it then pedal it.   However, with the clear polycarbonate doors in place, Flinstoning for a reversing capability is both awkward and dangerous.  Whereas the shorter distance required for reversing maneuvers suits itself perfectly for hand cranking.
I don't know why the twin pin holed center to the ratcheting mechanism appears to have partially unscrewed itself recently already, as judicious tapping sideways to my drift does not further undo it.  But I'm off to the bicycle shop with my vernier caliper measurement of pin hole to pinhole distance, and (strangely non metric sized) tight fitting 1/8"drift to beg for the privilege of a hoped for special tool for this and the slotted outer disk's engagement, and subsequent separation.

A bit off topic to be sure, but as real as my present reality gets.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 10:43:47 AM by steven mandell »

Barry

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2014, 08:42:16 AM »
I had often thought of connecting an electric motor to that sprocket for a bit more acceleration when required (Flipper and Supercomtesse).
Battery would recharge during normal use but might need to be a bit higher capacity.
The Flipper has a good reverse by simply turning the wheels by 180deg
The Supercomtesse has a transfer box for reverse.

If you do use the sprocket for reverse, why not use an electric motor rather than hand (foot) levers? 

Barry


Bob Purton

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2014, 09:20:38 AM »
So a sans permis hybrid then!  Funny enough Chris and I were talking about this as we sped down the road in his Honda Insight. After he explained how it work and that it had an electric motor constantly engaged to the end of the crankshaft I mentioned that it was not much different to the dynastart on my Isetta. We discussed the possibility of controlling a dynastart with all the right electronic gubbins  to boost an Isetta's power when needed. I even mentioned this on the Isetta forum to a less than enthusiastic response. That forum , set up by the Isetta club of GB but is almost exclusively inhabited by Americans, many of which have the sole purpose of modifying there cars to go faster. David did make one practical observation though and that's that because the dynastart is a brush motor the brushes wouldn't last very long! 

Big Al

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2014, 09:30:33 AM »
It is my full intention to outdo your chicanery in the development of a unique front suspension for my AC Trident.
I plan on using the wide based  stock  A arm that functions like a swing arm, as the bottom member of an unequal length double wishbone set up, with sway bar possibilities.
This is being perused to hopefully allow the front wheels to maintain optimal camber angles with the road during different phases of wheel travel.
Using "normal" engineering practice, the pivots for the upper links would have to located substantially higher up, in the interior of the vehicle, and would cause the A arms to crush my thighs upon normal suspension movement, if I was ever dumb enough to enter the meat crusher in the first place.
My product of chicanery will have an even more unlikely appearance than yours, but will hopefully distinguish itself as the most effective front suspension ever put in a Peel, and will, unlike your own creation, be as light as reasonably possible.
Different strokes for different folks. 8)

The problem is partly associated to the tiny wheels. Whatever you use there is only a certain area in which you can keep the wheel upright and in optimum position for grip. The small wheels mean that is a small area of movement and it is hard to see how to get great handling from such a position without resorting to a very hard ride. The other missing item is some sort of roll bar to bring both wheels into a related reaction to cornering and prevent on outside spring being overloaded. This is the fundamental problem with the Trienkel. On hard cornering the single compressing suspension gets over loaded, deforms further and that prepositionally increases the load beyond that the spring can tolerate. In other words there is a speed/load combination beyond which the car is guaranteed to fall over despite it feeling that it will cope on entering a corner. This is bad as many a driver has been fooled into cornering to fast. The Schmitt has rubber and thus the ride is harder and the deformation gets proportionally harder as it is compressed so it gets away with it. Also the tyres tend to let go first, so it skids off speed. If it does tip it is usually possible to collect the situation in the time it takes. The Treinkel, on good rubber, does not, it trips over with very little warning or ability to correct. Cannot speak for an Isetta as they generally are not fast enough to corner that hard  ;) .
The track, triangulation, center of gravity and wheel size greatly limit the P50 handling. But then they were not made to race around in. Its a bit like making a Warthog beautiful. It is easier not to start from there. But then home grown cars are all about doing the unusual.
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steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2014, 09:57:17 AM »
Thanks for the input Barry.
For anything more than a momentary assist in acceleration,  you would need a lot more batteries,  and a much larger charging capacity than these vehicles come with.  The energy would have to come from somewhere, so you would need a more powerful engine to turn a more resistant dynamo, and burn more gas in the process.
The whole setup would get too heavy, and what you would end up with would be an inefficient hybrid, as in cases like this, not starting from a clean sheet of paper, would detract from the efficacy of your final result.
However,  if you only are looking for very  occasional momentary boosts in acceleration, you might get by with a lightweight and efficient permanent magnet motor, one big battery, and an a.c. powered charger.  In effect a cheater plug in hybrid.
Alternatively, I was very surprised to discover the ease of using the hand pedal on the Arola.  For the very limited amount of backing up one should need to do, it would be ideal.
I hope we haven't forced Richard into an "off topic" fit by now.   He should be commended for being so well natured about this sort of thing lately.  Funny though when he could no longer hold his tongue re the dismal spelling found in the advert in the cars for sale a few days ago.  At least were not pushing that button so much.
However- on that note, suitable for another thread.  The spell checker on this forum regularly drives ME crazy. 
I correctly spell "Villiers", and it switches it to "villagers" when I'm not looking.  And on and on, making me look like the fool when I am actually spelling correctly. Jim- Can anything be done about this?
p.s. Now it will only let me write "Villagers" as I just spelled your revered microcar 2 stroke engine manufacturer 3 times correctly to no avail, after it suggested that I meant to spell " Willies".  Now I'm about ready to be bound and tied!

« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 10:04:40 AM by steven mandell »

steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2014, 10:10:51 AM »
Adding to the off topic spell checker complaint-  why wont it let me see the bottom lines of my post, so I can both check to see if it is up to its misquoting/ misspelling shenanigans after I have typed correctly?
I run into the same problem when I want to modify a line near the bottom of my longish posts.
Now that truly is giving me the "Willies".

steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2014, 05:57:10 PM »


The problem is partly associated to the tiny wheels. Whatever you use there is only a certain area in which you can keep the wheel upright and in optimum position for grip. The small wheels mean that is a small area of movement and it is hard to see how to get great handling from such a position without resorting to a very hard ride. The other missing item is some sort of roll bar to bring both wheels into a related reaction to cornering and prevent on outside spring being overloaded. This is the fundamental problem with the Trienkel. On hard cornering the single compressing suspension gets over loaded, deforms further and that prepositionally increases the load beyond that the spring can tolerate. In other words there is a speed/load combination beyond which the car is guaranteed to fall over despite it feeling that it will cope on entering a corner. This is bad as many a driver has been fooled into cornering to fast. The Schmitt has rubber and thus the ride is harder and the deformation gets proportionally harder as it is compressed so it gets away with it. Also the tyres tend to let go first, so it skids off speed. If it does tip it is usually possible to collect the situation in the time it takes. The Treinkel, on good rubber, does not, it trips over with very little warning or ability to correct. Cannot speak for an Isetta as they generally are not fast enough to corner that hard  ;) .
The track, triangulation, center of gravity and wheel size greatly limit the P50 handling. But then they were not made to race around in. Its a bit like making a Warthog beautiful. It is easier not to start from there. But then home grown cars are all about doing the unusual.
[/quote]

Al, I understand that smaller wheels have a smaller contact patch with the road surface, in Peel's case exacerbated by the fact that the tires are rounded in profile to match them to the camber change of the wheel that results from such a swing arm type suspension.  I also understand that the body's wheel enclosures are often designed to be quite reduced in size when 5" wheels are used.  Indeed the Trident has no well above the front horizontal fender line.  The lip of the front wheel wells is flat and on the same level with the tops of the inner fenders.  What you see from the side view of the car, is all the fender clearance for wheel travel that you get in this car.  So indeed front suspension jounce travel is quite limited.
Also the weight of a driver, or heaven forbid, a driver and a passenger, will outweigh the total weight of the unoccupied vehicle- so that you are going to need a much greater proportion of your vehicles upward jounce travel simply to accommodate the weight of its expected carrying load. That is why many of the smaller wheeled micro cars, such as a relatively larger bodied Nobel with its only 8" wheels look a bit awkward perched atop more than the usually seen amount of tire clearance provided above wheels that are so small as to make the upper fender clearance look that much more vast in proportion to the smaller wheel size. 
Curiously, the Nobel shares the self defeating flat and low level inner fender design of the Peel.  Were they looking for more interior space?  I think that a rounded inner fender would have made a lot more sense and given more space for wheel travel, without making it a significantly harder task to get your feet to slide past the rearward vertical section of the inner wheel well upon entering the car.

All these factors can limit availability of wheel travel range, but I see no reason why the fact that a micro car's small wheels alone, if they are proportionate to the small body of a micro car, cannot be accommodated by a greater amount of space designed into the tops of the wheel wells to negate this effect.  The fact that both the Nobel and Peels have chosen instead to go the other way with flat and low and level fender tops seems to be more of the culprit here to me.  And I haven't a clue as to why their designers would have chosen to exacerbate the situation by creating them that way, as it does seriously reduce the available range of wheel travel.
I will likely shoot for approximately only about 2 and a half inches of jounce travel for a fully loaded Peel, accompanied by relatively stiff springs, as we have no frost heave, and therefore smoother roads here. I may end up using shocks  with adjustable spring height perches that can be quickly selected by carrying the appropriate specialist spanner on board, for when the need to carry a passenger makes itself apparent.

We will se if it needs an antisway bar after that, as I am planning on using slightly lower profile, and more flat treaded tires on 6" wheels, and may even experiment with 2 of them in the rear of the Trident.  There is certainly room for this in the original design, a la Isettas in non UK versions.  I have heard rumor that Peel engineers them selves at least toyed with the idea.

Would stiffer front springs, and less grippy/ lower pressure inflated tires on the front end of a Hienkel/ Trojan go a long enough way to solving its treacherous handling characteristics?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 06:10:15 PM by steven mandell »

steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2014, 06:41:37 PM »
As you all have already undoubtedly noticed, Al's and my posts are often relatively lengthy.
When one of us quotes the other the end product is something that at first blush may appear to be a bit of a chore to read through.
This effect would be blunted to a substantial degree if someone could tell me how to get  a partially deleted quote to appear in the light blue background that reduces the effort of viewing by way of contrast, and a clearer indication that the material is something that you may have already absorbed.
Thanks :P
Steve

DaveMiller

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2014, 06:57:22 PM »
tell me how to get  a partially deleted quote to appear in the light blue background

Like this?

From the original posting, click on "quote".  Then look at the quoted text:  leave in the first square-bracketed stuff about who you are quoting, and the last square-bracketed bit that says it's the end of the post.  In between, you'll find the quoted text - just delete any bits of that you don't want to bother repeating.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 07:00:43 PM by DaveMiller »

steven mandell

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2014, 07:12:34 PM »
Thanks.  That should help me clean up future postings. :)

richard

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #102 on: February 21, 2014, 07:51:42 PM »
if i might say much of my viewing of the forum is by mobile during the day and obviously clever as he is Steve Fisks posting of MASSIVE pictures means i can hardly view the topic at all . come on steve you're a  bright lad why can't you post pics the same size as everyone else ? have you seen how many pages this topic has taken up ?  :)
outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read .Groucho Marx 1895-1977

Peel replica, Steve Fisk

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #103 on: February 21, 2014, 07:56:59 PM »
Haha sorry Richard , can some one please help me and tell me how to make my pictures smaller so I can make Richards day a little happier ?

Big Al

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Re: Hello every one ! Would my peel replica build be welcome on RUMcars ?
« Reply #104 on: February 21, 2014, 09:09:05 PM »
I correctly spell "Villiers", and it switches it to "villagers" when I'm not looking.  And on and on, making me look like the fool when I am actually spelling correctly.

I like it. Villiers Rally at the Birmingham YMCA featuring Scootacar, Bond, Gordon, Tourette, Frisky, oh yes and AC(DC) drivers singing your favourite hits. Steven Mandell presents The Village People!
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