sans permis Taxation class and UK registration

[Invacar model 70]

Hi All,

I have the opportunity to buy a Super Contesse (4 wheel 50cc) or possibly a Mini Contesse (3 Wheel 50cc, now in France).

Does anyone know what taxation class they would fall into in the UK?  I think the 3 wheel will be a trike so £16 per year tax and the 4 wheel will be a micro car £110 per year tax.  Is this correct?

Is there a simple guide to what needs to be done to import and register into the UK?  I think the Super that has been brought into the UK has no import paperwork.  Neither have French registration documents, as under 50cc do not have registration in France.

Can these vehicles be registered and used on the UK roads?

Is there any other information that i shouold know before doing a deal with the guy.

[Big Al]

Be interested to know what the correct rules are as I have only ever sorted out pre '73, therefore Hiistoric class, vehicles of this size, thus avoiding all the hassles.

It seems the 4 wheeled cars end up being classed as a Quad at least. That is slightly restrictive. The lack of official registration and manufacturer records will make things more difficult as the officials like to have proof of date of production, E marked parts and a recognised marque with continuity of VIN number. Failure risks falling into silly tests and Q plates. I would not be bothered with the hassle for a pretty unusable car on British roads. People have successfully registered these cars however. I suspect the proportion of registrations to cars owned is not great though. My Mini Comtesse is registered but while the previous owner drove it locally I would not as I think it would be to dangerous round here.

[Barry]

If your Mini Comtesse is registered Al you must have some useful details on th V5C.
Having three wheels, it is probably a trike.

I heard that if it is less than 400kg it doesn't need seat belts?

Also could possibly be a moped because the 50cc Sans Permis cars all seem to have a pedal arrangement.

Our recent new member, Skootashaun, Has MOT'd a Willam 125cc (and I think he is an MOT tester) so should give good advice on MOT if not on registration.

[Rusty Chrome (Malcolm Parker)]

The DVLA guide is here

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf

I've never imported a car, but my experience of the DVLA is that they are pretty helpful if you ring and speak to someone.

[Big Al]

If I had the V5C in hand I could tell you but it is stuck at previous owners mother's under nagging embargo of some sort I think.

MOT is down to having the licence. Three wheelers are dyeing out so getting tricky. Quads are not and strangely in the country might be easier than the city as the farmers use them a lot. At the moment my MOT station can do everything till you need plating. I am not sure what happens when Mike retires as he has all the odd licences. He is 70 now.

Mini Comtesse has three or five wheels depending on how you count them. Well mine does.

[Big Al]

The DVLA guide is here

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_199220.pdf

I've never imported a car, but my experience of the DVLA is that they are pretty helpful if you ring and speak to someone.

Lucky you.

I found them painfully inefficient but then I am normally asking a difficult question. Not helped by the LVOs not being linked or part of DVLA. They can get you going round in circles.

It seems to work thus.

If the system works and you are doing something that is a normal type routine it works well.

If you do something not of normal routine or it goes wrong the system has not always the flexibility to resolve the issues. It is highly dependant on the individual you are in contact with. Once a task goes wrong or dead ends you are deep poo as it relies on finding someone able to extract the relevant information out of the crossed over ends and put the enquiry back into a route that has an end that is actually a conclusion. It is a bit like trying to sort out a bad computer programme. You need to know the right question to ask to get the correct answer.

[Bob Purton]

HI Richard, looking at the dvla website it would appear you will need a dating certificate which rumcars will be able to supply, contact Mike Shepherd, he will have all the sales brochures so will be able to date it reasonably accurately.   Do you have his email?

[Invacar model 70]

contact Mike Shepherd, he will have all the sales brochures so will be able to date it reasonably accurately.   Do you have his email?

I do now you have emailed it to me   

[Invacar model 70]

Thanks for the fast replies guys.  It looks like a hard job to get a V5 for a normal car.  The guide has far reaching words like "VAT" (Gulp) and "Type Approval" (Double Gulp).  It may just be too much grief for me to bother with.

[Big Al]

Thanks for the fast replies guys.  It looks like a hard job to get a V5 for a normal car.  The guide has far reaching words like "VAT" (Gulp) and "Type Approval" (Double Gulp).  It may just be too much grief for me to bother with.

Well it is not new so no VAT to pay really but you might need to prove it was paid when bought new to avoid it now.

Type Approval is the reason you need some official documentation to nail the car to date made, manufacturer, consistent VIN number etc. That is best served by the French driving documentation and the original bill of sale. It used to be in France that to sell a car you had to insure the thing was roadworthy as part of the sale process. So there was a clear reason to not pass documents on as the car became a machine/art/static collectors item not allowed on the road and thus no residue responsibility to the previous owner if there was a later problem. That my have now got included with end of life laws for all I know. There will be some papers for the car but it is if the owner will pass them on or if they were passed to him.

[daughter of bamby]

our p50 replicas are classed as tricyles as they are 160kg all up,as they are new cars each and everyone has to go for an IVA (independant vehicle assesment), as a builder of hotrods, unless the cars age can be proved with original documents, reg number, chassis number etc then that too has to go for inspection and would be allocated a Q plate as it is of indeterminate origin/age. the implications of such an examination are many. to include sharp edges, e marked lighting, mirrors ,glasing,etc etc.2 strokes are considerd by vosato be the work of satan and are thought to be the harbingers of armageddon! your local DVLA office will be able to advise on what you need to do, but 1st i suggest you get some practice in at jumping through hoops and going round in circles. good luck.

[Barry]

Does your p50 have seat belts? 
Looks like we should give you a three wheel and four wheel Sans Permis to try through the system and see where it falls down (as you have the contacts).  Won't take up much of your time!!!

I am going to try to get my minicat through as a moped. It drives through the normal moped back wheel (in the middle) the 4" outer wheels are just like stabalisers.
Will I need to wear a helmet though?

[daughter of bamby]

you dont need seatbelts under a certain weight, think its 225 kg but dont quote me, also, any road tyres, ie a tyre that is in contact with the road surface HAS to carry Emarks AND be load and speed rated for the application.,that would include your "stabilizers". from experience, there are no tyres with correct markings available under 6", and even those took some sourcing.

[Bob Purton]

This question of registering old sans permis cars has been kicked around for some time now, what we need is a trail blazer to answer the questions once and for all, I nominate Barry [isetta owner]! Reasons being he appears to have the time and secondly he has half of europes sans permis cars in his garage! 

[AndrewG]

but 1st i suggest you get some practice in at jumping through hoops and going round in circles.

I think you should be grateful you are not the inventor of the Ecomobile (http://eco.peraves.ch/ndexe.htm), a cabin motorcycle with retractable stabilisers.  And just to make it harder, the guy is in Switzerland where I think they have honed their bureaucrats to a level that ours cannot even dream of.  The Swiss transport guys said it had to pass car laws when it had the stabilisers down and motorcycle rules when they were up - and of course these rules are incompatible.

Just to show what tenacity is, the inventor had to take the government to the high court, using the argument that they were creating a restriction to free trade, in order to get it passed.  Now isn't even VOSA easier than that?